Report on Msgr. Steenson’s meeting with Ordinariate-bound groups in Toronto last weekend

Peregrinus has a lengthy report.  This is an excerpt:

1. Membership

Individuals in each small sodality (associations of Oridinariate-bound Catholics in the Archdiocese of Toronto and the Diocese of Hamilton) will be received into the Ordinariate of the Chair of St Peter once each person has completed and sent a form to Msgr Steenson stating their desire for membership and the facts relating to former Anglican status or family relationship to an Anglican Catholic i.e. anyone raised as an Anglican or married to or the child of such former-Anglican Catholics.

All Latin Rite and all other Catholics are welcome to worship with Ordinariate Catholics and are indeed invited to. However, those not from an Anglican background or related to a former Anglican may not officially be listed as member for purposes of holding an official position in an Ordinariate.

This, of course, does not stop anyone from fulfilling their Sunday obligation at Ordinariate Masses on an occasional or a regular basis just as they may do so at a Chaldean, Ukrainian, Syrian or any other of the many non-Latin Rite Catholic communities in Toronto (BTW these Eastern Rite Catholic churches also have married priests – more on this later).

The sodalities or groups will proceed to constitute themselves in such a way that they can grow towards parish status within the Ordinariate in co-operation with their local Latin Rite diocese. Their priests will be incardinated within the Ordinariate but will co-operate with, occasionally assist and  have the support of the local Latin Rite bishop.

The purpose of the CCCB consultation is to work out the logistics for a Canadian Deanery of the OCSP possibly named with the patronage of St. John the Baptist, St Joseph or both.  This deanery will give a structure to the Canadian Ordinariate sodalities and parishes so that when a distinct Canadian Ordinariate is formed the structure will allow for easy transfer from the OCSP.

2. Authority ?

Is there still a place for the voice of the laity in the Ordinariate?

There is to be a kind of synodical structure to the Ordinariates as provided for inAnglicanorum Coetibus (AC) and its attendant norms. Msgr Steenson indicated that lay participation is one of the distinctive patrimonial features of the Ordinariates. The Governing Council is now in formation.

There will be deanery and parish level structures to which lay people will contribute and participate in.

Will the Ordinary have real control over the administration and assets of the Ordinariate which, in the case of Canada and the USA, is spread over a continent?

Finances will be held by sodalities, parishes and the Canadian Deanery in such a way that they can function ultimately within an independent Canadian Ordinariate with a Canadian Ordinary and Governing Council.

3. What role will the local bishops play?
Monsignor Robert Mercer (centre),
a celibate former Anglican bishop.
Of course the role of the local Latin Rite bishop is critical. It is he who will ordain Ordinariate priests, at least initially. There is no Ordinariate bishop as yet, however, celibate priests could be named bishops and could function as ordinaries or under an ordinary in the future.

The local Latin Rite bishop will have a close association with the Ordinariate clergy and they will participate in and share in local priestly associations, responsibilities and benefits. In the USA bishops have already taken on this responsibility for men ordained in their dioceses. In fact, Msgr Steenson pointed out how keen US bishops have been to ordain Ordinariate priests who give a boost to the local diocese in a number of ways.

4. Is there any way that conservative Anglicans (those who have evangelical sympathies and others) might be persuaded to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church through Ordinariates?

Msgr Steenson addressed this question directly in terms of those who have questions about the papacy and authority. He pointed out that it is a matter of primary catechesis to explain the authority of the Pope to those interested and moved by the Holy Spirit to explore full communion with the Catholic Church.

It was observed that many Anglicans/Episcopalians are desperately seeking communion in an orthodox community in light of the melt-down of the liberal churches in North America. The failure of many Anglican/Episcopal dioceses is exponential as bishops and primates dance (literally and figuratively) around their  altars in their headlong rush to post-modernist secularism: the culture of entertainment as opposed to worship.

4. Liturgy

This brings us to the sublime matter of worship which for Ordinariate-bound Anglicans is at the heart of communion in the Catholic Church.

Will the liturgy be familiar to Anglicans or will there be such changes that worship feels foreign?  Will the great Anglican musical tradition be nurtured and developed within the Ordinariates?

In answer to questions about the forms of liturgy for the Mass, Msgr. Steenson clarified a number of issues relating to rites, practice and faculties for priests to celebrate the Anglican Use Mass in Canada.

First of all, there is a new form of the Anglican Use Mass which has been adapted for use in Canada and is now approved by Rome. The Book of Divine Worship(BDW) Mass is no longer authorized as printed due to changes in the Novus Ordo (3rd edition) and other practical issues.

All sodalities and parishes are to use the Canadian form of the Mass modified under the direction of Msgr Steenson and edited by the soon-to-be-ordained former Bishop Wilkinson. This is now the only authorized form for Anglican Use Mass in Canada.

Former Anglican Bishop Peter Wilkinson,
a celibate candidate for ordination.

In the longer term there is a very distinguished group of international scholars working with the CDF and the CDW in Rome to produce a full sacramentary and prayer book for use in all ordinariates. A common set of texts which will be used in the UK, Australia, Canada, the US and other countries will be developed.  This is estimated to be a five year process but there will be individual rites authorized temporarily in the meantime.

5. Ordination and Economics

Will small communities be able to afford to pay priests a living wage? Will priests have to work for the local RC diocese dividing time between Anglican Ordinariate congregations and other parish or chaplaincy work?
Initially, ordinariates will rely upon the generosity of the local bishops to provide clergy as they are now doing.  Soon (by Easter it is estimated) more priests will be ordained to the Ordinariate in addition to the two currently ordained in Calgary.
There are some twenty on the list at present. They are to take a special training sessions supervised through the seminary in Houston under the Direction of Msgr Steenson.

 

Newly ordained Ordinariate Priests with Msgr. Steenson

These will be mainly retired men as there are only small resources in each sodality to support the growth of ordinariate parishes. Married men who have been Anglican clergy will, of course, be considered on a case by case basis, as is the norm in the Latin Rite in light of the celibacy rules.

There is one case in the UK of a married seminarian not previously ordained as an Anglican being considered for ordination. Again, AC provides for such ordinations to be determined on a case by case basis.

The membership issue kind of bothers me.  What if someone comes to our parish and they were not Anglican but became Catholic through us.   Will they be allowed to be members?

 

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24 Responses to Report on Msgr. Steenson’s meeting with Ordinariate-bound groups in Toronto last weekend

  1. Troy says:

    Thanks for posting this Deborah. Much good news but the membership thing has always seemed odd to me. How does my family invite our seeking neighbours to church if they can’t be members? Do I understand that they can come, they can even convert amoung our ordinariate parish family and receive the sacraments (baptism? marriage?), they can participate in all aspects of parish life but when they volunteer their gifts to sit on the parish council or some other official position we say, “Sorry, you don’t have the right membership card.”? Really? Welcome to the bureaucratic new evangelisation. I thought we weren’t supposed to be doing that? (I read something about that somewhere recently.)

    In all of the protestant churches I was involved with before becoming a Catholic, membership was a BIG deal. Officially you were a member of a particular congregation and if you weren’t you didn’t get to vote – on doctrine or otherwise. When I became Catholic no one ever said anything about being a member. The first time I heard the term in a Catholic context was in regards to AC. I thought I was just a Catholic. Am I also officially a member of the Roman Catholic Church? A particular congregation? (Soon to be an Ordinary Catholic – God willing). When I have mentioned my confusion to my traditional and knowledgeable cradle catholic friends – they look at me as if it is the oddest thing they have heard in regards to Catholicism. Perhaps it isn’t that strange, I don’t really know. But right now in my mind it tastes just a little of congregationalism. I hope someone can clarify this for me.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Troy,

      You asked: I thought I was just a Catholic. Am I also officially a member of the Roman Catholic Church? A particular congregation?

      You are a member of the “Roman Catholic Church” if you are a member of the Catholic Church who belongs, canonically, to the Roman Rite. Those who come into the full communion of the Catholic Church from a church of the Orthodox Communion or any of the ancient oriental churches typically belong to the corresponding sui juris ritual church, whereas those who come into the full communion of the Catholic Church generally belong to the rite of the community that received them. Any transfer from one rite or sui juris ritual church to another requires an indult (permission) from the Vatican.

      As a member of the Catholic Church, you normally acquire membership in a territorial diocese, eparchy, or some other “particular church” and in a territorial parish or quasi-parish (mission, chaplaincy, etc.) of your ritual church by establishing domicile or quasi-domicile within it, and this membership normally continues until you leave the place permanantly. You can override these defaults by joining a personal parish or a personal particular church, provided that you are eligible for membership therein. If you join a personal particular church, you automatically transfer to its territorial parish or quasi-parish at the same time. Of course, you are welcome to participate in services and to receive the sacraments in any Catholic Church, personal or territorial, regardless of rite or affiliation with one particular church or another. Thus, the canonical membership has little real bearing on day to day matters.

      I’m also hearing indications that many bishops are now giving parishes both territorial and personal status as a matter of expedience. Theoretically, if you live in Parish A but habitually attend services and enroll your children in religious education in Parish B, making Parish B your parish of choice, the pastor of Parish A would have to give permission to your marriage, your children’s baptisms and confirmations, etc., at Parish B. Normally, you would remain canonically a member of Parish A even if you fill out an enrollment form at Parish B. But if Parish B is also a personal parish, your enrollment as a parishionner of Parish B transfers your canonical membership and thus transfers jurisdiction over canonical matters to the pastor of Parish B.

      Norm.

  2. EPMS says:

    It’s all about celibacy. No married man must come forward for ordination unless he has the mark of Cain, as it were. Consequently membership in the Ordianariate must be hedged round.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      EPMS,

      You wrote: It’s all about celibacy. No married man must come forward for ordination unless he has the mark of Cain, as it were.

      I’m not sure what prompted that comment, but the Vatican really seems to be hedging on the issue of clerical celibacy in the ordinariates. Both Anglicanorum coetibus and the associated “Complementary Norms” do indicate a strong preference that those called to the order of presbyter from within the ordinariate be celibate, but they also indicate a willingness to bend if it becomes appropriate, or even necessary, to do so. This is quite explicit in the first paragraph of Article 6 of the “Complementary Norms.”

      Article 6

      §1. In order to admit candidates to Holy Orders the Ordinary must obtain the consent of the Governing Council. In consideration of Anglican ecclesial tradition and practice, the Ordinary may present to the Holy Father a request for the admission of married men to the presbyterate in the Ordinariate, after a process of discernment based on objective criteria and the needs of the Ordinariate. These objective criteria are determined by the Ordinary in consultation with the local Episcopal Conference and must be approved by the Holy See.

      And this is without prejudice to the right of any bishop or other ordinary to request an indult for the ordination to the order of presbyter of a specific individual in unique circumstances. Note that a married former Anglican seminarian has already received ordination for the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham under this faculty.

      Norm.

  3. Rev22:17 says:

    Deborah,

    You wrote: The membership issue kind of bothers me. What if someone comes to our parish and they were not Anglican but became Catholic through us. Will they be allowed to be members?

    The “bother” here probably is an artifact of oversimplification on Msgr. Steenson’s part. The apostolic constitution Anglicanorum coetibus is quite explicit as to membership (boldface mine).

    §4 The Ordinariate is composed of lay faithful, clerics and members of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, originally belonging to the Anglican Communion and now in full communion with the Catholic Church, or those who receive the Sacraments of Initiation within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate.

    The “sacraments of initiation” mentioned in this text are baptism, confirmation, and (first) communion, thus encompassing anybody baptized or received into the full communion of the Catholic Church in a parish or other community (sodality, chaplaincy, mission, etc.) of an ordinariate.

    The obvious canonical question is how this provision applies to persons baptized or received into the full communion of the Catholic Church (1) in existing “Anglican Use” congregations of the local diocese and (2) in ordinariate-bound congregations that are temporarily part of the local diocese that are awaiting transfer to the ordinariate. A strict interpretation of the law set forth in Anglicanorum coetibus undoubtedly would suggest that such individuals are not eligible because they technically were baptized or admitted to full communion in a congregation of the local diocese rather than in a congregation of the ordinariate. In the Roman legal tradition of Catholic canon law, however, permissive laws are always construed (1) broadly and (2) in keeping with the intent of the lawgiver. Broad interpretation clearly would deem those baptized within a congregation that subsequently becomes part of an ordinariate to have been baptized within the ordinariate’s jurisdiction, and would also construe those baptized or received into full communion in “Anglican Use” congregations of a diocese to be among those for whom the ordinariates are intended. And if not, the worst case is that such individuals might have to obtan an indult, which the Vatican probably would grant very routinely on a pro forma basis, in order to transfer from the canonical jurisdiction of a diocese to the canonical jurisdiction an ordinariate. But as a practical matter, this is not of much real importance.

    >> Any member of the Catholic Church can receive the sacraments of communion, reconcilliation, and annointing of the sick from any Catholic presbyter or bishop, regardless of rite.

    >> Permission to celebrate the sacrament of marriage in a place of a different diocese or equivalent jurisdiction is normally granted very routinely.

    >> Cases of nullity of marriage and other juridic matters arising in an ordinariate will go to the tribunals local diocese for the foreseeable future because the ordinariates do not yet have the resources to establish their own tribunals.

    >> And nearly all of the active clergy of the ordinariates will have concurrent canonical appointments as parochial vicars of the parishes that host their ordinariate congregations or to chaplaincies or other ministries of the local dioceses. Thus, the real impact on non-juridic canonical matters will be (1) which title they use when signing the paperwork and (2) to which office (ordinariate or diocese) they submit it.

    Thus, the only real impact is on the sacraments of confirmation and ordination of those baptized or received into full communion in diocesan parishes.

    More generally, it’s pretty clear that the Vatican does not want those baptized or received into the Catholic Church under the jurisdication of a local diocese who are not of Anglican heritage to transfer to an ordinariate without good reason. Nonetheless, the Vatican undoubtedly will grant indults for members of the Catholic Church to transfer from the canonical jurisdiction of a diocese to the canonical jurisdiction of an ordinariate whenever such a transfer makes sense. Two clear cases come to mind.

    >> 1. Such transfers clearly make sense if an individual professes vows in a religious order of an ordinariate.

    >> 2. Such transfers also clearly make sense if an individual holds stable permanent employment on the staff of a parish or other community, school, or some other ministry of an ordinariate, especially when the position effectively requires the individual to bond with the ordinariate community.

    And other situations in which transfers clearly make sense undoubtedly will surface in due course.

    Norm.

    • Peregrinus says:

      Marriage to someone who is an Ordinariate member would be amongst the most common cases for transfer of a Catholic. Adoption into an Ordinariate family would be another in the case of a child or other person already baptized in the Latin Rite Catholic Church.

      It needs to be stated again and again that anyone can receive the sacraments of initiation and so become members of an Ordinariate parish/ mission/ chaplaincy, etc. if they come from any Protestant church, from no church or from another religion of any flavour. Lutherans would be amongst the most obvious candidates for reception into Anglican ordinariate communities.

      • Rev22:17 says:

        Peregrinus,

        You wrote: Marriage to someone who is an Ordinariate member would be amongst the most common cases for transfer of a Catholic. Adoption into an Ordinariate family would be another in the case of a child or other person already baptized in the Latin Rite Catholic Church.

        Yes — and note that those situations do not require an indult because the affected individuals clearly become members of “an ordinariate family” by the marriage or adoption. The same is true of a stepchild and probably also of a foster child, at least whenever there’s a reasonable expectation that the foster arrangement will not be temporary.

        Norm.

  4. Peregrinus says:

    Perhaps I should just add that many have spoken of the Holy Father’s profound desire to bring Protestants and others into the unity of the Catholic Church. His long association with Lutheran scholars, pastors and people has, undoubtedly, shaped his thinking about Our Lord’s mandate for unity.

    A careful reading of Anglicanorum Coetibus (AC) shows that there is every reason to believe that the Holy Father sees this as an avenue for Protestants generally. It truly is a magnificent contribution to unity which, as a young friend has pointed out to me, as an Apostolic Constitution AC will be there in 50 years for those still seeking unity. Truly it is for the ages and is the fruit of a devout pastoral heart and inspired leadership.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Peregrinus,

      You wrote: Perhaps I should just add that many have spoken of the Holy Father’s profound desire to bring Protestants and others into the unity of the Catholic Church. His long association with Lutheran scholars, pastors and people has, undoubtedly, shaped his thinking about Our Lord’s mandate for unity.

      Rather, I think that Catholic theology of the papal office — especially that expressed in Pope John Paul II’s encyclical Ut unam sint (of which Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger probably was the principal ghost writer) is the principal driver. Nonetheless, his relations with Protestant Christians, including the many Lutherans in his native country, probably are a major contributor to his sense of the urgency of pursuing the Christian unity.

      You wrote: A careful reading of Anglicanorum Coetibus (AC) shows that there is every reason to believe that the Holy Father sees this as an avenue for Protestants generally.

      That thought raises a very interesting question. The Anglican tradition has a distinct liturgical and sacramental patrimony and that’s easily adapted to ensure the validity of the sacraments and a hierarchical structure that’s substantially Catholic. Protestant bodies, on the other hand, run the gamut from highly liturgical (such as the Lutheran and Presbyterian traditions) to aliturgical (Baptist, Evangelical, and Pentecostal associations), and from near-Catholic hierarchy to utterly non-hierarchical. An ordinariate structure clearly would make sense for those that have distinct liturgical and sacramental patrimonies that lend themselves to adaptation for Catholic use and hierarchical structures similar to that of the Catholic Church, but I’m not so sure that the ordinariate model would be as readily viable for denominations that are at the other ends of these spectra.

      But then again, most evangelical Christians are much more concerned about the quality of preaching and teaching, especially of scripture, than anything else. If they find a Catholic, Anglican, or Lutheran parish with clergy who preach the gospel effectively, they are quite willing to worship there. Thus, ordinariates do not seem necessary for such groups.

      Norm.

      • Peregrinus says:

        Interesting points, Norm. I have been away from the blogs for a while so here is a somewhat tardy response.

        On the issue of non-liturgical Protestants worshipping with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.:

        Surely those in the Ordinariates should be just as welcoming of all who choose to worship with them from whatever background. Exposure to the Word and Sacrament at Mass will lead many to accept the Catholic Faith within the Ordinariates.

        You are quite right to note that another distinct Ordinariate structure would not serve that purpose for people coming from “Free Church” but since the Anglican Ordinariates are up and running, these can serve the same purpose and act as a bridge for many open-minded Baptists, Pentecostals and other Free Church types. There is little doubt that this is one of the challenges for the Ordinariates as they develop their role in the New Evangelism.

        May the Year of Faith be one of open doors and warm hospitality in Ordinariate parishes and missions for people from many traditions and none. Indeed the harvest is great . . .

      • Rev22:17 says:

        Peregrinus,

        You wrote: On the issue of non-liturgical Protestants worshipping with Anglicans, Lutherans, etc.:

        Surely those in the Ordinariates should be just as welcoming of all who choose to worship with them from whatever background. Exposure to the Word and Sacrament at Mass will lead many to accept the Catholic Faith within the Ordinariates.

        To a point, yes. The hiccup here is that Protestants generally are pretty liberal with intercommunion across denominational boundaries, and many of their churches practice open communion — that is, all baptized Christians may receive. This flows, to a large extent, from a defective theology of the church that does not see visible union as an essential element thereof, and thus does not understand the concept of “imperfect” union articulated by the Second Vatican Council. As a result, many do feel less welcome when they discover that we do not invite non-Catholic Christians to partake at our eucharist. Nonetheless, I have seen good preaching and a welcoming community overcome that hurdle on more than a few occasions.

        You are quite right to note that another distinct Ordinariate structure would not serve that purpose for people coming from “Free Church” but since the Anglican Ordinariates are up and running, these can serve the same purpose and act as a bridge for many open-minded Baptists, Pentecostals and other Free Church types. There is little doubt that this is one of the challenges for the Ordinariates as they develop their role in the New Evangelism.

        I’m not persuaded that we need ordinariate parishes to do that. Rather, we need (1) clergy who preach the Word of God fearlessly and without compromise and (2) communities of faithful who live by the gospel rather than just paying lip service to it. When evangelical Christians find this in a Catholic community, they often seek to join the Catholic Church.

        I’m not sure how Protestants of the “free church” tradition will react to the Anglican ordinariates. If they find solid preaching of the Word of God, they most assuredly will react positively to that. On the other hand, the celebration of mass “pro oriente” could be an additional obstacle that they would not encounter in a normal diocesan parish that celebrates mass according to the current ordinary form of the Roman Rite. In the “free church” tradition, the ministers never turn their backs to the congregation when performing ministerial functions.

        You wrote: May the Year of Faith be one of open doors and warm hospitality in Ordinariate parishes and missions for people from many traditions and none. Indeed the harvest is great . . .

        May this happen in all Catholic parishes!

        Norm.

  5. Jose says:

    Dealing with marriage, I have a question.
    I read in n. 3 of The Order for the Celebration of Holy Matrimony;
    “3. In cases of pastoral necessity or in the absence of a priest or
    deacon incardinated in an Ordinariate, any priest or deacon
    incardinated in a Diocese or in an Institute of
    Consecrated Life or Society of Apostolic Life may preside over the
    rite of Marriage according to The Order for the Celebration of Holy
    Matrimony for members of the Ordinariate who request it.”

    1. Does it means that any priest or deacon incardinated in any
    ordinariate may preside over the marriage of two members of the
    ordinariate?

    2. Does it mean that any priest or deacon may preside over the marriage in
    cases of “pastoral necessity”? I suppose that this could de done
    according to the general law (I mean, if they have the delegation,
    etc…).
    Thanks!

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Jose,

      You asked: Dealing with marriage, I have a question.
      I read in n. 3 of The Order for the Celebration of Holy Matrimony;
      “3. In cases of pastoral necessity or in the absence of a priest or
      deacon incardinated in an Ordinariate, any priest or deacon
      incardinated in a Diocese or in an Institute of
      Consecrated Life or Society of Apostolic Life may preside over the
      rite of Marriage according to The Order for the Celebration of Holy
      Matrimony for members of the Ordinariate who request it.”

      1. Does it means that any priest or deacon incardinated in any
      ordinariate may preside over the marriage of two members of the
      ordinariate?

      2. Does it mean that any priest or deacon may preside over the marriage in
      cases of “pastoral necessity”? I suppose that this could de done
      according to the general law (I mean, if they have the delegation,
      etc…).

      The answers to these questions actually are a bit more complicated than you probably would like. Canonically, the pastor (and in many dioceses, parochial vicars and deacons) of a parish holds a general delegation to preside over marriages (1) celebrated in the parish to which the bishop assigned them or (2) to whcih a member of that parish is a party. By virtue of holding a general delegation, the pastor may “subdelegate” — that is, appoint another qualified individual to perform this function, but only for a specific celebration of marriage. Here in the United States (and probably also in Canada), most pastors grant such subdelegations pretty routinely. Note that, the recipient of the subdelegation need not be of the same rite as the pastor or the parties to the marriage.

      Now, discussion of “cases of pastoral necessity” generally pertains to situations governed by Canon 1116 of the Codex Juris Canonici (Code of Canon Law). Here is the Vatican’s official English translation thereof.

      Can. 1116 §1. If a person competent to assist according to the norm of law cannot be present or approached without grave inconvenience, those who intend to enter into a true marriage can contract it validly and licitly before witnesses only:

      1/ in danger of death;

      2/ outside the danger of death provided that it is prudently foreseen that the situation will continue for a month.

      §2. In either case, if some other priest or deacon who can be present is available, he must be called and be present at the celebration of the marriage together with the witnesses, without prejudice to the validity of the marriage before witnesses only.

      Such situations are pretty rare in North America, but they nonetheless do arise occasionally. Last May, while in Hot Springs, Arkansas, to play in a bridge tournament, I went to mass at a parish that was a couple blocks from my hotel. At mass that Sunday morning, the parishionners found, at the back of the entrance procession, (1) the deacon assigned to the parish on the other side of the city and (2) a strange priest with a heavy foreign accent, who was somewhat difficult to understand. If I remember the details correctly, (1) their pastor, who had been hospitalized with a serious illness, had died on Thursday (his wake was that evening and his funeral was the next morning) and (2) the presbyter whom the bishop had appointed to serve them during the pastor’s absence had suffered a significant stroke on Friday — clearly a very unexpected “one-two punch!” The arrangement, set up on very short notice, was that the presbyter with the thick foreign accent would preside, but would not preach, and that the deacon from the other parish would preach at all of the parish’s masses until the bishop could appoint a new pastor. Thus, at that time in that parish, it was “prudently foreseen that the situation would continue for a month” so this canon applied.

      But anyway, the paragraph that you quoted from the general instructions pertains to situations in which the pastor or chaplain of an ordinariate community is not available. It is fully consistent with Section 2 of Canon 1116.

      Norm.

  6. Foolishness says:

    Just out of curiosity, as this came up in discussion during our bunfight this afternoon: could a Roman Catholic family have their child baptized in an Ordinariate parish? I am inclined to think not, given how tightly the rules seem to be being enforced. What would a canon lawyer say?

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Deborah,

      You asked: Just out of curiosity, as this came up in discussion during our bunfight this afternoon: could a Roman Catholic family have their child baptized in an Ordinariate parish? I am inclined to think not, given how tightly the rules seem to be being enforced. What would a canon lawyer say?

      Canonically, children ordinarily belong to the rite of their father (unless the father is not known, in which case they belong to the mother’s rite), even if baptized in a parish of another rite — but the kicker here is that ordinarates for the “Anglican Use” canonically are part of the Roman Rite rather than a distinct rite of their own, at least as currently constituted, so baptism of one’s child in an ordinariate parish does not strictly fall under the canons governing baptism in a parish of a rite other than one’s own. Thus, I’m not aware of anything explicit that would forbid this. Of course, once the child becomes a member of the ordinariate by baptism, the parents would be eligible to transfer to it.

      And if somebody does come up with some canonical basis to forbid this, there’s always the option of adopting a child who is already a member of the ordinariate….

      Norm.

  7. EPMS says:

    Are the twenty men mentioned above who will be preparing for ordination at Easter all from Canada, or did I misinterpret? If they are, or even if only half of them are, one would assume that they would be expected to divide their time between Ordinariate and local diocesan duties. Mrs Gyapong’s parish has four former clergy among its 40+ members; the Victoria sodality has 7 former clergy and perhaps a dozen lay members. Edmonton has 2 former clergy and 5 laypeople. Vancouver does not currently have any group of former Anglicans who worship together. So the manpower needs of the St John the Baptist Deanery will initially be much smaller than the number of potential ordinands, while the local dioceses continue to be stretched.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      EPMS,

      You asked: Are the twenty men mentioned above who will be preparing for ordination at Easter all from Canada, or did I misinterpret?

      The monsignor apparently said that the “some twenty” who are “on the list so far” (indicating that there probably will be more when the classes actually begin) are “for the ordinariate” so some of that number probably are in the United States, and probably including several former clergy of the Anglican Church in America (ACA). Here, I’m thinking of former and future Fr. Luke Reese in Indianapolis and the former ACA clergy of the former Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Orlando. Nonetheless, your numbers appear to add up to about fifteen or so in Canada.

      Norm.

  8. Rev22:17 says:

    Deborah,

    Now that I have had time to study the original article in more detail, I have a couple more observations.

    Peregrinus wrote: Finances will be held by sodalities, parishes and the Canadian Deanery in such a way that they can function ultimately within an independent Canadian Ordinariate with a Canadian Ordinary and Governing Council.

    The normal Catholic practice is for each diocese or other particular church, each parish, and each unit (monastery, province, etc.) of a religious order to be a separate “juridic person” (corporation) under secular law. The fact that a “territorial deanery” for Canada of the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter would also be a separate “juridic person” (corporation), anticipating its eventual elevation to status as a separate ordinariate, is not really a surprise.

    Peregrinus wrote: There is no Ordinariate bishop as yet, however, celibate priests could be named bishops and could function as ordinaries or under an ordinary in the future.

    Yes, absolutely. The Vatican’s intent clearly is for celibate ordinaries to receive episcopal ordination.

    That said, I would not expect Catholic Episcopal ordination of celibate former Anglican bishops who are not appointed as ordinaries unless the pope appoints them to some other episcopal office. The presence of a bishop within an ordinariate headed by an ordinary who is not a bishop could be a very awkward situation for both, which the Vatican understandably wants to avoid.

    The caption to one of the photographs: Former Anglican Bishop Peter Wilkinson, a celibate candidate for ordination.

    Ah-ha! I did not know that former bishop Peter Wilkinson is celibate until I read this caption. This is very significant: depending upon how soon the Canadian deanery reaches status as an ordinary, he may well have the distinction of becoming the first ordinary to receive episcopal ordination.

    Peregrinus wrote: 4. Is there any way that conservative Anglicans (those who have evangelical sympathies and others) might be persuaded to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church through Ordinariates?

    Here, the monsignor’s answer is absolutely accurate: there can be no compromise of Catholic doctrine to entice conservative Anglicans to come into the Catholic Church.

    That said, the successful erection of the ordinariates probably is the most significant key to enticing conservative Anglicans to join them. Many conservative Anglicans undoubtedly have heard the doubts of the naysayers, and thus are hesitant to take the leap of faith that joining an ordinariate in its formative stage seems to entail. Once they are satisfied that the ordinariate is the real deal, many will come. Of course, some will see this as soon as they recognize the face that’s presiding at a mass of the local ordinariate, some may take a year or two, and some may take ten or twenty years to realize that the ordinariates are here to stay.

    Peregrinus wrote: Will small communities be able to afford to pay priests a living wage? Will priests have to work for the local RC diocese dividing time between Anglican Ordinariate congregations and other parish or chaplaincy work?

    Yes, these are crucial issues facing all of the ordinariates. Only a few ordinariate congregations have enough income to support a married full-time pastor, and that does not begin to address the need for other professional staffing: religious formation, youth ministry, etc. There are also other ministerial needs — liturgical supplies (altar bread and wine, incense and charcoal, catechetical textbooks and workbooks, training of catechists, office equipment and supplies, maintenance of buildings and grounds, janitorial services, etc.) that a parish must pay. Sharing facilities and ministerial programs with a diocesan parish will help to diminish many of these expenses, but the ordinariate congregation should still pay its proporationate share. Thus, the practical reality is that, for the foreseeable future, most ordinariate clergy will need to do something else to generate enough income to support their families. Chaplaincies and teaching positions may be the preferred options, but they are not the only options.

    Norm.

    • Stephen says:

      Norm,

      I only quibble with this part:

      The presence of a bishop within an ordinariate headed by an ordinary who is not a bishop could be a very awkward situation for both, which the Vatican understandably wants to avoid.

      I don’t think this is really an issue; episcopal members of societies headed by a presbyteral superior are not uncommon, and the promise of obedience to one’s Ordinary is not negated by episcopal consecration.

      However, I do think that the episcopal consecration of former Anglican bishops is unlikely to happen, to avoid another sort of awkwardness. For example: there are six former Anglican bishops in the OOLW, and only one of them meets all the ancient criteria for bishops. I do not anticipate Mgr Mercer becoming a bishop (even though I think he has every one of the qualities required of a bishop, and has them in spades) because of the potential for awkwardness of the “why was he consecrated when he wasn’t?” variety. This might not come from within the ordinariate – in fact, it probably would not – but it could very easily become a distraction which detractors would take great delight in playing up.

      • Foolishness says:

        Well, Msgr. Mercer was already retired from episcopal ministry by the time he was received into the Catholic Church and a case could be made to have a younger man in the job, i.e. Msgr. Newton, yet still have a retired Catholic Bishop Mercer available for such things as priestly ordinations and such. I think Msgr. Mercer fills all the qualifications for being a Catholic bishops, above all in his holiness and courage and self-sacrifice. I would say the same for former Bishop Peter Wilkinson, also a celibate. And he certainly would not pose any disobedience or rebellion problems for the Ordinary Msgr. Steenson

      • Stephen says:

        I agree with you, Deborah. Particularly about the qualities of Mgr Mercer. I think that the greater risk is that those outside of the Ordinariate and who wish it harm would find the idea of one former Anglican bishop raised to the episcopate whilst the others remained priests far too delicious to pass up – despite the perfectly valid reasons for such a decision. It is the sort of ground in which all sorts of seeds of discord could be sown. I don’t think that such seeds would ever grow to bear bad fruit, but they could easily become a distraction that the fledgling ordinariates could do without.

        But still, who knows? I certainly wouldn’t complain if Mgr Mercer became Bishop Mercer again. (Well, I’m no longer RC, so I don’t have any right to complain anyway, but you know what I mean.)

  9. Jos says:

    thanks Norm for your comments

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Jos,

      You wrote: thanks Norm for your comments

      You’re most welcome. I take it that you found the information to be helpful.

      Norm.

  10. Foolishness says:

    I am pretty sure the number 20 includes candidates from both the United States and Canada who will be part of the next formation program that starts in Advent and ends by Easter. Former bishops Reid and Wilkinson have already started theirs from what I understand.

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