Ordinariates will not last 20 years says former Aussie Anglican

This is interesting.

The Anglican ambassador to the Vatican, David Richardson, has attacked the Roman Catholic “raid” on the Anglican Church two years ago as offensive and embarrassing.

Australian Canon Richardson, a former dean of St Paul’s Cathedral in Melbourne, said the special Anglican wing the Vatican set up to provide a home for Anglican dissidents would not last more than 20 years.

Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/anglican-blasts-raid-20130423-2icv0.html#ixzz2RUmTIhya

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49 Responses to Ordinariates will not last 20 years says former Aussie Anglican

  1. Mario R. Claro says:

    I think he is panicking because he fears it will succeed.

  2. Richard M says:

    Canon Richardson might more profitably spend his time pondering why it is that the Anglican Communion in Australia, the US and England is managing to drive off so many Anglicans – a development that long preceded (and indeed caused) the creation of the Ordinariates.

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  4. Whilst I know that Australian Anglican Bishops and other clergy dont have much time for anything to do with the Ordinariates and not too much with their own High Church Parishes as such you must bear in mind that apart from Fr.Stephen in Perth there are not too many young Priests. Please correct me if I am wrong . Whilst I dont want to sound pessimistic , I cannot see a stream of young people approaching the Ordinary with a wish to enroll for Priestly studies, especially when they have to observe celibacy. Renumeration as such could also be an issue . For a city like
    Melbourne there is one Ordinariate Parish in South Caulfield and if my memory serves me right there are four Priests and a small congregation. Another TAC Priest Fr.Graeme Mitchell from
    Saint Mary’s Caulfield will join them once he has completed his further studies. His own
    congregation has dwindled to very few faithful, because most of them did not want to go to
    Rome and other went to All Saints , East Saint Kilda the only true Anglican Catholic Parish in the Anglican Church of Australia which is left. ( Also sad ). I was a former TAC Priest , but
    left because I did not want to become a Roman Catholic. May I go on record that I wish
    the Ordinariate of the Southern Cross well, but as I said it is not what I would have chosen.

    Having said all that … I have been talking about Australia. The issues could be much different somewhere else.

    Father Ed Bakker
    ACC/OP

    • Don Henri says:

      I found that small faith communities tend to be very resilient, ie to continue to exist against all odds. Such an example is the Armenian ordinariate of Romania, made up of just three parishes, that has existed for 100 years, and while not growing, it has not disappeared and continue to foster its particular liturgical and pastoral culture. Even with very few priests and laity, an ecclesiastical structure can achieve a kind of strength. I think that the advantage of this small Australian ordinariate is that the people, conscious to be a handful, and having a distinct tradition to preserve, are much more committed and engaged into its life than the typical Catholic or Anglican.

      + pax et bonum

      • EPMS says:

        If only they had a distictive ethnic and linguistic identity, like your favourite example, the Armenians in Roumania, they’d be all set. But they don”t.

      • porys says:

        It is the same with Armenian ordinariate in Poland. 3 parishes with 2 active bi-ritual priest and most of parishioners are Polish of Armenian origin. BTW in Gliwice (when is no Armenian Mass – they went for Tridentine mass which is celebrated in their church),

    • Joshua says:

      Having visited and attended Mass at the Ordinariate parishes in Melbourne and Sydney, I would have to confirm that numbers here in Australia are very small, and that both their clergy and laity are not very young either – but of course if the Ordinariate help even one person, then it has fulfilled its purpose. May it continue to flourish and prosper! Only time will tell.

      Certainly by all accounts the Ordinariates in North America and Great Britain are large enough to have reached a “critical mass”, and have a good spread of ages among their membership both clerical and lay. Recall that Australia has a much smaller population than either the UK or the USA, and that religious practice rates here are quite low even among Catholics, let alone among Anglicans.

      Also, the Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross is not yet one year old, and only has thirteen priests so far, including its Ordinary (with more still in preparation): after, say, five years, matters will have matured.

    • David Murphy says:

      Indeed, Fr. Ed, your analysis for Australia may indeed be correct. There is obviously only a relatively small Anglo-Catholic movement in the first place from which the Ordinariate can initially be built. Some new evangelisation might briung new blood, but this will take time and may not be successful.

      The situation in Britain and the USA is very different. In both countries there are some reasonably large viable communities. Already the Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham has 4 seminarians (despite celibacy) and with time we must try to win Rome over to the idea that married clergy is part of the Anglican patrimony. There is also a large Anglo-Catholöic base which will no doubt provide converts over the years.

      I see no reason at all why the Ordinariates shouild not be a permanent feature of the Catholic Church. And I am not aware of anybody who is in the “raiding” business. These are Anglo-Catholics who petitioned Rome for a way of entering into full communion corporately. The only way that Rome was able to offer was for them to become Catholics, which they chose to do voluntarily. Proselytisation is not on the agenda!!

  5. Ioannes says:

    As they say in the Internets: “Haters gonna hate”

  6. Rev22:17 says:

    Deborah,

    From your quotation: Australian Canon Richardson, a former dean of St Paul’s Cathedral in Melbourne, said the special Anglican wing the Vatican set up to provide a home for Anglican dissidents would not last more than 20 years.

    These words may well prove prophetic — but in a manner that the Canon does not expect. In twenty years, it seems quite plausible that the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham and the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter will have been replaced with personal dioceses — and it’s certaily possible that the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross will have come to the same “demise.”

    Of course, there are two major conditions that are necessary for this to happen.

    >> 1. The ordinariate must have enough celibate clergy to supply bishops.

    >> 2. The ordinariates must develop the infrastructure (tribunals, etc.) of a diocese, and this means enough clergy with the requisite pontifical degrees to staff such infrastructure.

    Additionally, the transition from ordinariate to diocese is most likely to happen either (1) when a married Ordinary retires or (2) during the tenure of a celibate ordinary. Anglicanorum coetibus seems to envision that celibate ordinaries will receive episcopal ordination.

    But this certainly can happen in twenty years!

    Norm.

  7. BCCatholic says:

    Hmmm, what do we see here? Non-Catholics see merit in Canon Richardson’s point, Catholics are more optimistic about the future of the OOLW and OCSP, at least. Clearly no objectivity here. What empirical evidence might support each position? I note that St John the Evangelist in Calgary has until 2016 to finance the purchase of their $1.65 million church from the Anglican Diocese of Calgary, or they will be out looking for new premises. The success of their building campaign would be a powerful statement about the Ordinariate’s long term viability.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      BCCatholic,

      You wrote: What empirical evidence might support each position? I note that St John the Evangelist in Calgary has until 2016 to finance the purchase of their $1.65 million church from the Anglican Diocese of Calgary, or they will be out looking for new premises. The success of their building campaign would be a powerful statement about the Ordinariate’s long term viability.

      I’m not convinced that the fate of one congregation is an accurate bellweather of the whole for at least two reasons.

      >> 1. The Catholic Diocese of Calgary probably has a church campus to which the Parish of St. John the Evangelist can move if the need arises.

      >> 2. The situation in which this parish finds itself is not exactly representative of other ordinariate congregations. Rather, some of the ordinariate congregations already hold clear titles to their real estate while other ordinariate congregations are sharing facilities with normal diocesan Roman Catholic parishes.

      >> 3. A collapse of one or two ordinariate congregations will not casuse the collapse of an entire ordinariate.

      So is the capital campaign of St. John the Evangelist Parish in Calgary a bellweather for the future of the ordinariate? I seriously doubt it.

      Norm.

  8. EPMS says:

    By definition a bellwether (note spelling) is a single member that functions as a microcosm of the whole. It is not unrealistic to suppose that some parish or project in an Ordinariate could fulfill this function, surely. Perhaps you could suggest a better example.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      EPMS,

      You said: By definition a bellwether (note spelling) is a single member that functions as a microcosm of the whole.

      Okay, I’ have always been a mathematics person. Spelling never was my forte.

      But you knew what I meant!

      You said: It is not unrealistic to suppose that some parish or project in an Ordinariate could fulfill this function, surely.

      Actually, I think that it is unrealistic. The communities of the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter clearly fall into at least three different categories.

      >> 1. There are some well established congregations that clearly have “critical mass” in terms of number of members and no major financial issues. Of course, these congregations may need to undetake capital campaigns to expand their facilities, or to move to larger facilities, if they experience significant growth. Examples include the Church of the Incarnation in Orlando, Florida, the Sodality of the Annunciation in Ottawa, Ontario, St. Thomas More Catholic Community in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and the congregation of the Church of Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston, Texas.

      >> 2. There are several well established congregations that have negotiated agreements with the local diocese of the Anglican Communion to retain their property, but which have obligations to pay for it over some period of time. These congregations clearly should undetake capital campaigns to raise the needed funds, but they have sufficient numbers of parishionners and the other resources required to do so. Examples include the Parish of St. John the Evangelist in Calgary, Alberta, Mount Calvary Church in Baltimore, Maryland, St. Luke’s Church in Bladensburg, Maryland, Christ the King Church in Towson, Maryland, the Church of St. Michael the Archangel in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and St. Timothy’s Church in Fort Worth, Texas.

      >> 3. There are a LOT of small to medium congegations that typically do not have their own facilities, and thus share facilities of parishes of the local dioceses within which they are situated. Some of these congregations formed by gathering people in the vicinity who shared a common interest, while others split off from various congregations of the Anglican Communion or from various “continuing Anglican” bodies. Many of these congregations are too small, and thus lack the resources, to operate the programs that one would expect to find in a typical parish — Christian formation, sacramental preparation, etc. — and thus share these programs with the parishes that host them. In all cases, however, the status quo is sustainable indefinitely even though (1) not optimal and (2) intended as an interim arrangement. Examples include St. Augustine of Canterbury congregation worshiping at St. Margaret Church in Oceanside, California, Blessed John Henry Newman congregation worshipping at St. Joseph’s Catholic Church in Santa Ana, California, the St. Joseph of Arimathea Anglican Use Society worshipping at Holy Rosary Parish in Indianapolis, Indiana, the St. Gregory the Great congregation worshipping at St. Margaret’s Church in Beverly, Massachusetts, the Fellowship of St. Alban worshipping at Good Shepherd Catholic Church in Henrietta, New York, and the Community of St. Anselm worshipping at St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville, South Carolina. There are also a handful of similar communities that worship in chapels at Catholic centers, retreat houses, monasteries, or other Catholic facilities.

      There are, of course, a small number of congregations that don’t fit neatly into any of these categories. Here, one thinks of the Fellowship of Blessed John Henry Newman — a small congregation that has nonetheless procured use of St. Columba’s Anglican Church in Victoria, British Columbia, apparently through a lease-purchase deal, and thus already has its own facilities. Of course, this congregation also needs to undertake a capital campaign to meet its contractual obligations with respect to its facilities.

      But the bottom line here is that there is not really a good bellwether because the congregations in any one of the three principal categories are not representative of those in the others. Also, it seems inevitable that some of these congregations will have more success than others.

      Here, I should also mention that a mortgage is always an option for congregations that have use of facilities under lease-purchase agreements. If they fail to raise all of the funds needed to buy their properties, they can borrow the balance and continue their capital campaigns to pay off the respective mortgages.

      That said, the most critical financial challenge facing the ordinariates may well be to fund their central administrations. Clearly, the congregations that already have clear title to their own real estate need to step up to the proverbial plate to put the ordinariates on firm financial footing, and thus should undertake capital campaigns for to raise needed funds for their ordinariate if they don’t need the funds for their own purposes. The willingness to do this may be the most significant bellwether of all.

      Norm.

      • EPMS says:

        Norm, I see your point. Your analysis also illustrates the many advantages which the North American Ordinariate has over its British counterpart. Whether the OCSP congregation is a large group worshipping in its own paid-for building or a tiny handful meeting at some off-time in a local Catholic church, it is in any event regularly offering an alternative to the standard NO mass. An Anglican who was contemplating becoming a Catholic could attend and find elements of the Anglican liturgical patrimony that encouraged him to embrace this particular expression of the Church. A former Anglican might wish to recover elements of this patrimony in a Catholic setting. In the case of OOLW, about two-thirds of the groups meet only once a month for community worship. The rest of the time the members go to their local Catholic parish church for the usual mass. And even when the congregation is large and stable enough to have an Ordinariate mass every Sunday, in all but a few instances they use the standard NO liturgy. So, unless a convert wished to associate himself with an Ordinariate group for social reasons, what would draw him to OOLW rather than his local parish?

      • Stephen M says:

        (in response to EPMS)
        I would imagine that the first Ordinariate was established in England for reasons of history: that’s where the Anglican schism began, so it is right that that is where it begins to be healed – even if every other ordinariate in the world is likely to be bigger than the OOLW ever will be.

      • Rev22:17 says:

        EPMS,

        You wrote: Your analysis also illustrates the many advantages which the North American Ordinariate has over its British counterpart. Whether the OCSP congregation is a large group worshipping in its own paid-for building or a tiny handful meeting at some off-time in a local Catholic church, it is in any event regularly offering an alternative to the standard NO mass. An Anglican who was contemplating becoming a Catholic could attend and find elements of the Anglican liturgical patrimony that encouraged him to embrace this particular expression of the Church. A former Anglican might wish to recover elements of this patrimony in a Catholic setting. In the case of OOLW, about two-thirds of the groups meet only once a month for community worship. The rest of the time the members go to their local Catholic parish church for the usual mass. And even when the congregation is large and stable enough to have an Ordinariate mass every Sunday, in all but a few instances they use the standard NO liturgy.

        Much of this also represents the difference in past practice of the groups that came to the respective ordinariates. It clearly is not reasonable to expect congregations that used the ordinary form of the Roman Rite within the Anglican Communion to do something different after they come into the full communion of the Catholic Church, even if they choose to affiliate with an ordinariate rather than a diocese.

        You asked: So, unless a convert wished to associate himself with an Ordinariate group for social reasons, what would draw him to OOLW rather than his local parish?

        I’m not persuaded that very many converts would know the difference, or would care.

        As the Catholic Church officially uses the term, a convert is a person who comes to the Catholic Church from either a non-Christian religion or an absence of religious belief. Anybody who comes to the Catholic Church from another Christian denomination is already a Christian, and thus is NOT a convert. And here, I should also point out that the Latin term novus ordo is NOT, and never was, an official designation of the current ordinary form of the Roman Rite.

        But as to the question that you probably intended of what might draw an Anglican Chrisian to an ordinariate congregation that uses the ordinary form of the Roman Rite rather than to a normal parish, there are several possibilities.

        >> 1. The ordinariate congregation’s manner of celebrating the liturgy (reverence, choice of liturgical music, etc.) might be more in tune with the person’s spiritual background, allowing the individual to relate more readily to the ordinariate congregation’s liturgy.

        >> 2. The clergy of the ordinariate congregation might preach in a manner with which the person can relate more effectively than to the preaching by the diocesan clergy.

        >> 3. The ordinariate congregation might have programming (adult formation such as bible study, etc.) that meet the individual’s needs more effectively than the programming of the diocesan parish.

        >> 4. The ordinariate congregation is likely to have more intimate bonds of community than many diocesan parishes. Perhaps your instinct is to regard this as social, but there is also a very significant spiritual dimension to it.

        >> 5. The members of the ordinariate community also have the experience of leaving the Anglican Communion to come into the full communion of the Catholic Church, whereas very few members of the diocesan parish would have such experience. For many people, the ability to talk with people who have walked their spiritual path before them is huge.

        >> 6. One also cannot discount the impact of personal friendships that ordinariate members might have established within the Anglican Communion. A trusted confidant who can answer questions about the spiritual journey from one communion to the other is priceless.

        These examples are not, by any means, intended to be an exhaustive list. Rather, they are simply potential reasons that happen to come to mind as I write this.

        Norm.

  9. P.K.T.P. says:

    The dear man misspoke. He meant that, at this rate, the Canterbury Communion would not last another twenty years.

    P.K.T.P.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Peter,

      You said: The dear man misspoke. He meant that, at this rate, the Canterbury Communion would not last another twenty years.

      I don’t foresee it disappearing completely, but it probably will cease to be a Christian body. The proponents of “political correctness” who are trying to commandeer it will pursue their agenda of “political correctness” into apostasy, but they will ensure that an organization called the “Anglican Communion” composed of the provinces that they control will endure.

      But it does seem likely that the membership of the Anglican Communion will plummet pretty dramatically, especially if the provinces of the Global Anglican Futures Conference (GAFCON) — which represents over two thirds of its membership — break off. The open question is what will happen to the GAFCON provinces in this scenario: they could establish new “instruments of communion” and thus a new “continuing Anglican” body, and it’s also possible that they might seek full communion with the Catholic Church and thus might form ordinariates where they do not now exist.

      Norm.

      • P.K.T.P. says:

        I am not ‘Peter’ to you and you obviously have no sense of humour. But then this does not come as a surprise.

        P;.K.T.P.

      • Don Henri says:

        Oh, eminent reverend doctor professor and your highness sir Perkins, when God will call you “Peter” will you correct “Pr Perkins please”? Being called by one’s first name is not discourteous when not intended as such.

        + pax et bonum

  10. EPMS says:

    Norm: Once again the OOLW Portal magazine’s latest issue has chosen to profile an Ordinariate Group whose spokepeople, otherwise grateful and positive about their experience in the Catholic Church, concede that the potential for growth of their group is nil. “It has surprised somewhat that not more Anglicans from Huntingdon have joined us because The CofE locally has had its problems too”. “I have difficulty calling our Group a Group. We have been subsumed into the Diocesan Catholic Church as we are small and dismembered”. If Canon Richardson were looking for material to back up his assertion, he would find plenty in the archives of The Portal.

  11. Richard Grand says:

    What I think is meant by Canon Richatdson is the simple fact that the Ordinariate has a limited shelf life, since the “next” generation will have little reason to stay in Ordinariate parishes or groups when the difference between them and the majority of Roman Catholics will have diminished. The Ordinariate will eventually be absorbed into the Latin Rite parishes for educational and sociological reasons. To identigy as “Catholic” will mean “Roman Catholic” and already we see the seeds of this. For example, no new seminarians will be ordained if they are married or intend to be. I see that the Ottawa Sodlaity is mentioed as one of the larger, more solid communities. In comparison to other nearby Roman parishes (or even Anglican ones) it is quite tiny. It has survived because it has not had to pay clergy stipends. Its growth depends on people wanting to become Roman Catholics with a desire for Anglican liturgy, such as it may be found there. However, it has also lost people who had no desire to become Roman Catholics. Personal friendships may bring people in, but, in Roman Catholic terms, it is hardly viable down the road. See my point above.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Richard,

      You said: The Ordinariate will eventually be absorbed into the Latin Rite parishes for educational and sociological reasons. To identigy as “Catholic” will mean “Roman Catholic” and already we see the seeds of this.

      That may happen to some of the smaller ordinariate groups that are too small to celebrate their own liturgy, but it is not the likely fate of the larger ordinariate groups that already have their own churches. Note that the sui juris ritual churches have long endured within the Catholic Church, and some of them are considerably smaller than two of the ordinatiates. The Anglican form of the liturgy is sufficiently distictive so those steeped in it will seek to preserve it.

      You said: For example, no new seminarians will be ordained if they are married or intend to be.

      That is not a given, even though it’s clearly what the Vatican would prefer. In fact, to the contrary, the “Complementary Norms” for the implemtation of the apostolic constitution Anglicanorum coetibus clearly indicate some amount flexibility in this regard.

      But that said, the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham already has four (4) celibate seminarians. There are many Catholic dioceses that would like to have as many.

      You said: I see that the Ottawa Sodlaity is mentioed as one of the larger, more solid communities. In comparison to other nearby Roman parishes (or even Anglican ones) it is quite tiny. It has survived because it has not had to pay clergy stipends.

      Rather, it has raised money partly by renting use of its facilities to an Orthodox congregation and partly by the generous donations of its members. I suspect that it actually does pay its pastor for services rendered.

      You said: Its growth depends on people wanting to become Roman Catholics with a desire for Anglican liturgy, such as it may be found there.

      Now that the congregation is stable, there are undoubtedly some former Anglicans who have already come into the Catholic Church who will join it and some who will come into the full communion of the Catholic Church from both the Anglican Communion and various “continuing Anglican” bodies. Nevertheless, it’s largest source of growth is more likely to be its own evangelism.

      You said: However, it has also lost people who had no desire to become Roman Catholics.

      Yes, and these fall into two categories. Some undoubtedly feared that the ordinariate would be a sham and that the parish would not retain its Anglican identity. A significant percentage of those may rejoin the parish once they see the finished product. Others had issues with the Catholic Church, either real or imagined, and thus may be less likely to return to the parish.

      In this regard, a lot may depend upon the church/congregation which those who departed have formed. If it is not sustainable, they soon will be looking for a new church home — and the Anglican Church of Canada (ACC) will not be any more viable as an option than when they left it, potentially leaving the Catholic congregation as the only viable alternative.

      Norm.

      • Foolishness says:

        We do pay a clergy stipend in Ottawa. I would say it is largely because people in our congregation are serious about tithing. Not that there is ever any exhortation to tithe that I can recall, but there is no other way to explain the way our small numbers meet our various expenses. As for the “rent” paid us by the Orthodox, it is a nominal fee, something that maybe helps pay for the extra use of lights and heat when they’re there.

      • BCCatholic says:

        I think it is a mistake to equate an Anglican Ordinariate with a “sui juris ritual church” which serves as the community focus for a linguistic/ethnic minority. These parishes have an important social function, especially if Catholicism is also a minority denomination or religion among that ethnic group, which has enabled them to survive even with small numbers. If a member of the Ottawa parish were to move to Edmonton, or Toronto, say, would he feel motivated to seek out the handful of local former Anglicans worshipping mid-afternoon at an inconvenient location, or would he join a local parish?

      • Foolishness says:

        If I moved to Edmonton or Toronto I would definitely do my best to worship with the Ordinariate parishes there, even if at an inconvenient time.

      • Rev22:17 says:

        Deborah,

        You wrote: I would say it is largely because people in our congregation are serious about tithing. Not that there is ever any exhortation to tithe that I can recall, but there is no other way to explain the way our small numbers meet our various expenses.

        Where the Word of God is preached faithfully, there is seldom a financial need. When I encounter a congregation having financial difficulties meeting its just obligations, the first thing that I examine is the preaching — both from the pulpit and in the lives of the people.

        So my guess is that the Sodality of the Annunciation in Ottawa is a congregation within which the Word of God is both preached and lived in its fullness.

        Norm.

      • Rev22:17 says:

        BC Catholic,

        You wrote: I think it is a mistake to equate an Anglican Ordinariate with a “sui juris ritual church” which serves as the community focus for a linguistic/ethnic minority. These parishes have an important social function, especially if Catholicism is also a minority denomination or religion among that ethnic group, which has enabled them to survive even with small numbers.

        I don’t agree at all with this analysis for two reasons.

        >> 1. In most of the sui juris ritual churches in the west, the first generation of immigrants preserved their ethnic language but successive generations generally grew up learning the vernacular language of the place to which their ancestors had come. As this happened, they shifted their liturgy to the local vernacular even before the Second Vatican Council began the shift to the vernacular in the Roman Rite. Perhaps you are not aware that, in the 1950’s and 1960’s, some monastic communities here in the States had several of their priests acquire faculties to celebrate the liturgy according to one or another of the eastern rites, and thus become biritual, because this allowed the entire community to pray the divine office according to the respective eastern rite, and thus in the vernacular, rather than according to the Roman Rite, which then still had to be in Latin.

        >> 2. Although newer, the “Anglican patrimony” is indeed every bit as much of a spiritual ethnicity as that represented by each of the sui juris ritual churches. Those who are accustomed to the celebration of the mass according to the Anglican form, for example, are bound to feel that something is missing in both the current ordinary form and the Tridentine form of the Roman Rite because neither contains the “Prayer of Humble Access” and other distinctly elements that are spiritually profound.

        And for this reason, I suspect that, when travelling, most members of “Anglican Use” parishes will go to an “Anglican Use” liturgy, whether in a parish of an ordinariate or in a diocesan personal parish established under the “pastoral provision” here in the States, whenever they are able to do so. I have little doubt that Deborah is not exactly alone in this!

        Norm.

  12. EPMS says:

    Norm: My perusal of various parish websites suggests that in fact the principal Sunday liturgy at most North American ritual churches is celebrated in Ukranian, Armenian, Arabic, etc. although an earlier service may be in English, or bi-lingual.

    • William Tighe says:

      I agree; such is, also, my impression (with the exception of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics).

  13. Ioannes says:

    From what I’ve read, it looks like the Personal Ordinariates are exclusive groups only for Anglican converts. If only they’d allow cradle Catholics to learn and preserve the Anglican Patrimony. Why, you’d have many Ordinariate babies that will grow up to become priests and bishops! And, not the least, sources of revenue from the overflowing collection plate.

    But no. Disaffected Catholics in their happy-clappy masses should stop being grumpy and forget about the Ordinariates. It’s not for them. It doesn’t matter anymore, because everything is a-okay. Catholic liturgy and spirituality will be fine whatever people do, wherever people go. Just tune out, let your eyes glaze over and listen to father’s sermon about loving your neighbor and how Jesus’ love and forgiveness are unconditional so even sinners don’t have to ask to be forgiven and everyone goes to Heaven. Yeah, that was an actual homily last Sunday over here in La La Land.

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Ioannes,

      You wrote: From what I’ve read, it looks like the Personal Ordinariates are exclusive groups only for Anglican converts. If only they’d allow cradle Catholics to learn and preserve the Anglican Patrimony….

      But no. Disaffected Catholics in their happy-clappy masses should stop being grumpy and forget about the Ordinariates. It’s not for them. It doesn’t matter anymore, because everything is a-okay….

      First, the word “converts” is theologically wrong in this context. Persons baptized in another Christian denomination, including both the Anglican Communion and the myriad of “continuing Anglican” bodies, and subseqently received into the full communion of the Catholic Church are NOT “converts” because they are already Christians.

      Second, your first paragraph begins with a theological oversimplification that grossly distorts reality. Here is the relevant provision of Anglicanorum coetibus (boldface added).

      §4 The Ordinariate is composed of lay faithful, clerics and members of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, originally belonging to the Anglican Communion and now in full communion with the Catholic Church, or those who receive the Sacraments of Initiation within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate.

      The “Sacraments of Initiation” mentioned in the boldfaced text being baptism, confirmation, and first communion, this wording encompasses all baptized or received into the full communion of the Catholic Church within an ordinariate community, obviously including “cradle Catholics” born to parents who belong to an ordinariate.

      And third, there is absolutely nothing that bars any member of the Catholic Church from satisfying his or her obligation to mass by assisting in a mass of an ordinariate community rather than a mass of a diocesan parish. Rather, the bar is only to a transfer to the canonical jurisdiction of an ordinariate from the canonical jurisdiction of one’s diocese. This would affect the tribunal to which one might submit a petition for a decree of nullity of one’s marriage, for example, but it is of very little practical impact in day to day life.

      Norm.

      • Ioannes says:

        Okay, the Ordinariates are solely for Anglican converts-who-aren’t-really-converts-because-they’re-already-Christians.

        If you have no prior connections to Anglicanism or Ordinariates, you have no business with the Ordinariates. Is what I’m saying. You can go Mass there, etc. but why bother? What’s the motivation for the non-former-Anglican/people-connected-to-the-Ordinariates people to care about the Ordinariates and its Anglican Patrimony? They can’t be a part of the Ordinariates, so the Ordinariates are limited to that specific group. listed in Anglicanorum Coetibus. If the Ordinariates want to last longer than 20 years, there better be a lot of couples with a lot of babies who can be priests and bishops. Or more Anglican converts-but-not-really-converts-because-they’re-already-Christians.

        I abandoned the hope of the Anglican Use being the solution to liturgical problems in the Anglosphere. Maybe that’s the same thing with the Extraordinary Form. It’s like hoping that Japan’s Catholic population suddenly grows beyond the 1% it has. It might happen, but not in my lifetime.

      • Foolishness says:

        You can become part of an Ordinariate parish family—-you can put money in the collection plate, you can attend every Sunday, you may even be asked to help out from time to time. The only thing is your name cannot be on the membership roll and your baptismal, marriage and confirmation records will not be kept there. And, hey, you hang around and you might meet an Anglican Use young woman and get married and your problem is solved.

  14. Ioannes,
    I recall that some time ago in Melbourne Father Graeme Mitchell from the ACCA ( who is now Rome bound) had a Mass Saint Mary’s Church, South Caulfield , which was in celebration of a Marian festival . Bishop Elliott took part and many Roman Catholics attended. They were in
    fact delighted with the way Fr.Mitchell celebrated the Mass. So… I see your point . I agree
    the Ordinariates came into places to cater for dissatisfied Anglicans or Anglican Catholics.
    But surely you must have some choice of Parishes to attend on Sunday.In Melbourne for instance there is Saint Francis RC Church, Traditional Catholic … they use the Novo Ordo , but are
    Traditional. People come from miles around. I believe your Saint Louis diocese is traditional.
    You don’t have to attend a happy clappy Mass unless you live in a place where you have no
    choice.
    Have you considered moving to an Ordinariate Parish , I am quite sure that they will let you in?

    Father Ed Bakker ACC/OP

    • Ioannes says:

      In Los Angeles proper (This discounts Orange County/Anaheim, etc.), they have more or less the same sort of worship going on every Sunday at every Latin Rite church. Bonus points for the “gay ministries” you find here and there, and the electric guitar and drum sets. And tone-deaf cantor.

      See, they do offer the Extraordinary form. At 5:00 In the Morning at the 4th Sunday of every 2nd month, except Holy Days of Obligation, Easter, or Christmas, confessions by appointment only. That’s the sort sort of arrangement we have over here.

      You know that you love God when you feel like you’re being punished for worshiping Him reverently.

      It’s not a problem for me to go drive an hour or so for the Mass in the mornings or other awkward hours of Sunday, not at all! I’m willing to walk 100 miles for the Extraordinary Form, but luckily, I have a car.

      It’s that feeling, as if I were a freak who does not like what everyone around him likes- it’s the feeling of being the only one who cringe when the “congregation leader/cantor/whatever” thinks he’s glorifying God by trying to flamboyantly belt out some show tunes during mass- and being made to feel like a “Pharisee” for it. Because wanting rubrics to be followed makes one a Pharisee, apparently. It’s that feeling of nausea or butterflies in the stomach when the priest in his homily says the phrase “We used to teach in the Church that ____” followed by some doctrine that was never abrogated. Then the Profession of Faith, if the priest feels like it. Then there’s troping for the “Agnus Dei”. I give up at that point. I just stop resisting and shut down my thoughts.

      It makes me think that if I feel that I have to go to the Extraordinary Form at some distant parish to worship God (who can hear your prayer even if you don’t pray or believe in Him, by the way, according to some priests), I might as well go SSPX and burn in hell. Or go all-out, sedevacantist-level of crazy and make a scene that justifies everything everyone suspected about traditionalists but never had the courage to ask before because the Pope was Benedict XVI.

      That’s what the Archdiocese wants me to do, if I can’t accept the “Ordinary Form” in all its “humility” and “noble simplicity”. I feel so at home not only at the Extraordinary Form, but also with the Anglican Use. It felt so right that I love those liturgies so much, but I feel like thinking and feeling in such a manner is abnormal considering the “normal” form of worship. Why? Because those liturgies ARE extraordinarily beautiful. And so, they’re abnormal. I talk about them with people I know at my local parishes, and I might as well be talking about UFO’s and conspiracies of the Freemasons and Jews plotting to do some Freemasonry and Judaizing.

      I don’t know. I live in a diocese where the bishop thinks “Immigration Reform” is more important that saving people’s souls and worshiping God properly. I call it “Pandering to the congregation” but they call it “Being pastoral”.

      • Rev22:17 says:

        Ioannes,

        You wrote: In Los Angeles proper (This discounts Orange County/Anaheim, etc.), they have more or less the same sort of worship going on every Sunday at every Latin Rite church. Bonus points for the “gay ministries” you find here and there, and the electric guitar and drum sets. And tone-deaf cantor.

        Your description is not consistent with my experience of mass on the few occasions when I have been in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles on a Sunday morning at all. Of course, I have visited only a handful of parishes in that archdiocese so I don’t have a sufficient sampling to say what is or is not typical there.

        That said, I met Archbishop Gomez when he was an auxilliary bishop in the Archdiocese of Denver. He does not strike me as the sort of bishop who would tolerate this nonsense. On the other hand, if he inherited a cadre of predominantly liberal-leaning clergy from Cardinal Mahoney, it may well take a considerable amount of time to bring about needed change.

        You wrote: I feel so at home not only at the Extraordinary Form, but also with the Anglican Use. It felt so right that I love those liturgies so much, but I feel like thinking and feeling in such a manner is abnormal considering the “normal” form of worship. Why? Because those liturgies ARE extraordinarily beautiful. And so, they’re abnormal.

        Here, your leap from “extraordinarily beautiful” to “abnormal” seems a bit over the top.

        That said, you have an absolute right to worship with an ordinariate parish at any time, even on a regular basis. Although you cannot officially become a “member” of such a parish, the practical consequences of this canonical technicality are pretty limited. As Deborah noted, you can still assist in various ways, including much of the parish’s program of ministerial outreach. You also can receive the sacraments of reconcilliation, holy communion, and anointing of the sick there with no problem. The celebration of your wedding or funeral in the church of the ordinariate officially require permission of the pastor of the diocesan parish within which the ordinariate parish or mission worships, but diocesan pastors now grant the necessary permission so routinely that it’s considered extremely gauche, and even an insult, to refuse them — and the same is true of delegation of faculties for ordinariate clergy who don’t already hold the necessary faculties to preside at those services. But nearly all ordinariate clergy hold concurrent appointments as parochial vicars of the diocesan parishes within the territory of which their ordinariate congregations worship, and thus actually already have the necessary faculties. Thus, your objection that you cannot formally become a member of an ordinariate parish really seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill.

        You wrote: I live in a diocese where the bishop thinks “Immigration Reform” is more important that saving people’s souls and worshiping God properly.

        Having met Archbishop Gomez, I doubt that he sees it that way.

        Norm.

      • Ioannes says:

        Norm,

        I also thought Archbishop Gomez was going to change things up, not gonna tolerate abuses, at least in the liturgical aspect of the Church. I found out that at best, his excellency is indifferent, allowing a sort of benign neglect and letting people do what they want so long as they don’t “shake the boat.”

        There are a lot of parishes in L.A. proper- during the 17 years of living in Los Angeles, I have visited and worshiped at most of them. I suppose you can find an issue if you look for them, some being easier to spot than others. But they’re not going to change, especially when they’ve been doing the same things for how long- it just wouldn’t sit well with the “Old Guard”- So at this point why bother to care, if it’s the normative for the priest to do whatever?

        With Archishop Gomez, I was sort of disappointed, but then I was the one with the expectations, so it’s my own fault.

        ———-
        As for the Ordinariate membership, it’s fine. I don’t for example, make an issue about not being a member of the Order of the Holy Sepulchre, for example, so why make a fuss about the Ordinariates after all? So long as those folks are Catholic, I’m happy for them. The “Not gonna last 20 years” comment just got me thinking. But I’ve got no real contribution to that issue, if it’s true. I mean, unless I became a millionaire- then I’d give some dough to the Ordinariates.
        ———-

        The Extraordinary Form, the Anglican Use, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the three liturgies I’ve seen in Los Angeles, are abnormal. In the sense that they’re supernatural, if we consider what is “normal”. If an angel appears in front of me, or miracles happen, they’re extremely rare. They are like aberrations. But they’re beautiful aberrations. When something banal and commonplace is normal, what is abnormal? Well, maybe “Abnormal” has negative connotations, but for someone whose experience of worship is 90% “Ordinary Form” (I only discovered the Extraordinary Form, along with those two liturgies during the papacy of Benedict XVI) the other forms of worship are strange and new, but they never struck me as bad, just not normal.

        I dunno. Maybe I -am- making mountains out of molehills. Exaggeration, defensiveness and freaking out is a common trait among traditionalists. (For example, see the reactions during the election of Pope Francis- traditionalists freaked out so much it was almost comical, looking back on it.) Maybe now I’ll try to be a “well-adjusted” member of my local parish and slide into pious apathy, which shouldn’t be a big deal in Los Angeles.

      • Andrew Jordan says:

        Ioannes, I have visited the Orange County group, and know for a fact that the blessed John Henry Newman Ordinariate group would love to have you attend there.

        The details are all here:
        http://www.jhnewman.org/index.html

        Talk with Fr. Bartus! If you have a car and are willing to drive, then it isn’t a problem. There were people there driving from Glendale and Pasadena.

        It is silly to let this business about not being on the books turn you off. Our Ordinariate
        Group in Rochester has Roman rite folks that attend regularly; I suspect every group does.

      • Rev22:17 says:

        Ioannes,

        You wrote: I also thought Archbishop Gomez was going to change things up, not gonna tolerate abuses, at least in the liturgical aspect of the Church. I found out that at best, his excellency is indifferent, allowing a sort of benign neglect and letting people do what they want so long as they don’t “shake the boat.”

        Here, we need to be (1) fair to Archbishop Gomez and (2) realistic in our expectations. A new archbishop cannot just snap his fingers and have everything throughout a major archdiocese be different. It takes time to rebuild — to retrain both clergy and lay liturgical ministers, etc. — and the new archbishop must maintain pastoral services to every parish in the archdiocese while the rebuilding is in process. The need to keep parishes open means that one simply cannot pull all of the current clergy back into seminary for two or three years of corrective coursework — and in any case, one probably needs to replace faculty of the seminary who are not orthodox with faculty who are orthodox before retraining can begin. While this is in process, about all a new archbishop can do is to chastise clergy who are clearly violating the rubrics personally. The spiritual re-formation that’s really needed will take some time.

        You wrote: The Extraordinary Form, the Anglican Use, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the three liturgies I’ve seen in Los Angeles, are abnormal. In the sense that they’re supernatural, if we consider what is “normal”.

        Every valid mass posesses the character of supernatural action, regardless of the rite or the form of a rite according to which the celebration occurs — but there is such thing as a “normal” celebration of mass. When you use the term “abnormal” in this context, it implies something other than a normal celebration of mass.

        Having said that, have you ever visited Prince of Peace Abbey in Oceanside, California? You might find their liturgy to be worthwhile. In fact, it might be a good place to go for a retreat.

        Norm.

  15. Ioannes,
    Thank for sharing some of your feelings with us. I think that this helps us to understand you better.

    I as such have a Dutch Old Catholic background and when coming to this part of the world I joined the Anglican Church of Australia. I am very much a Traditionalists and Orthodox and my conscience some years ago told me to leave to join the TAC. I wont go into any further discussions regarding the move from the TAC, we have done that. I tell you what I found:
    after you leave former fellow worshippers treat you like dirt, one is called a heretic just because one is Orthodox, or as you say you want to worship the Lord in the beauty of Holiness.

    You were talking about the SSPX. I have in my possession video recordings of an SSPX Mass in the french Church St.Nicholas du Chardonnet. I have watched it many times , its beautiful and cannot get over the devotion of the worshippers, youg and old, rich and poor. Dont think any of these people will be burning in hell.

    If you love the Lord then in your inner self you know the way which is right for you to worship Him in the beauty of Holiness. We have to follow our heart in this matter.

    Father Ed Bakker ACC/OP

    • Ioannes says:

      Remember at Fr. Stephen Smuts’ blog, and even here, I’d hurl insults at you and a whole lot of other people? So long as you love Jesus and your neighbor, you’re probably alright.

      Consider my fire extinguished.

      • Thank you Ioannes , may God bless you on your journey to find the Spiritual home where you can worship the Lord in the beauty of Holiness.
        Father Ed Bakker ACC/OP

    • Rev22:17 says:

      Fr. Ed,

      You wrote: You were talking about the SSPX. I have in my possession video recordings of an SSPX Mass in the french Church St.Nicholas du Chardonnet. I have watched it many times , its beautiful and cannot get over the devotion of the worshippers, youg and old, rich and poor. Dont think any of these people will be burning in hell.

      Ioannes is right about one thing: there are some Catholic dioceses in which an absence of holiness and reverence is pervasive, and it’s reflected in the liturgy in nearly all of their parishes. The problem, however, is not any deficiency in the current ordinary form of the Roman Rite, as many ardent traditionalists suppose, but rather the attitude of the clergy and laity who participate in the celebration. There’s no doubt that the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) is ensuring that its clergy celebrate mass in a reverent and prayerful way and that its adherents flock to its masses for that very reason. A reversion to the Tridentine liturgy in the parishes of the dioceses where this problem persists would not solve anything, but rather would simply bring about the same irreverent celebration and irrelevant preaching in the Tridentine form.

      You wrote: I as such have a Dutch Old Catholic background…

      If you were ordained for the Old Catholic Communion before it began ordaining women, it’s very likely that the Vatican will recognize your sacramental orders and that you won’t need to receive ordination in the Catholic Church.

      Norm.

      • Norm,

        Thank you for the feedback. I agree with your comments ” Ioannes is right about one thing”.
        I have seen the same in New Zealand and Australia.

        Norm, I was ordained later in life. My conscience told me to leave the Anglican Church of Australia and I was accepted as a postulant in the TAC. What happened after that you know already. If we love the Lord and we want to worship Him in the beauty of Holiness , then we must follow the desire of our inner being and go to such a place where this is done.

        The Old Catholic Church of Holland and indeed of Europe has changed dramatically, thank God for the Union of Scranton, the Nordic Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church.

        Did you see a video by any change of the Mass HH Pope Francis celebrated in the local RC Church in the Vatican? I downloaded it onto my pc and I think it is wonderful.
        Also the way he greeted the faithful.

        Have a good week.

        Fr Ed Bakker ACC/OP

      • Rev22:17 says:

        Fr. Ed,

        You wrote: Thank you for the feedback.

        You’re welcome!

        You wrote: The Old Catholic Church of Holland and indeed of Europe has changed dramatically…

        Yes, quite tragically!

        But the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) had the wisdom to sever relations with the rest of the churches of the Union of Scranton rather than to follow them over the cliff.

        You continued: … thank God for the Union of Scranton, the Nordic Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church.

        Perhaps you are not aware, but Pope John Paul II delegated responsibility for ecumenical dialog with the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) in 1984 because the PNCC is located predominantly in the United States. This dialog led to a Joint Declaration on Unity published in 2006 which noted that there are no doctrinal obstacles to unity, but that there are nonetheless many practical difficulties that have arisen during the time of separation requiring resolution satisfactory to both sides. In this regard, the joint declaration specifically identifies the presence of many former Catholic clergy among the clergy of the PNCC — but the married episcopate of the PNCC probably is the most difficult issue: there’s no shortage of concern in the Vatican that episcopal ordination of married men within the Catholic Church would disrupt ecumenical dialog with the Orthodox Communion, so any solution which would allow that is not going anywhere right now. My guess is that there will be a solution that will allow the churches of the Union of Scranton to retain their own hierarchy, but the present “dioceses” of the PNCC might become “ordinariates” or “prelatures” in which married “ordinaries” or “prelates” do not receive episcopal ordination.

        You wrote: Did you see a video by any change of the Mass HH Pope Francis celebrated in the local RC Church in the Vatican? I downloaded it onto my pc and I think it is wonderful.

        No, but I habitually assist in the conventual mass of a Benedictine monastery that stands in stark contrast to the masses at most of the parishes in the vicinity. A few years ago, I remarked to the (now former) abbot that the 95th percentile of the homilies that I hear in the local Catholic parishes was about on par with the 5th percentile of homilies that I hear at the abbey. He thought for a few moments and then remarked, “That’s pretty pathetic.” Yes, pathetic indeed! And the quality of the rest of the masses in the parishes is about comparable.

        Norm.

  16. William Tighe says:

    Perhaps of interest, and relevant; articles on the Union of Utrecht and Old Catholicism, two by me, and one by my late friend Dr Lawrence Orzell of the Polish National Catholic Church:

    http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-01-021-f

    http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=17-04-056-r

    http://www.newoxfordreview.org/reviews.jsp?did=0998-tighe

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