We have quite a discussion going elsewhere on this blog on the difficulty in finding Ordinariate news in one place and how we might create a better clearinghouse for new information.
A lot of the latest news has now migrated to Facebook, so if you do not have an account, I suggest you get one and friend various Ordinariate folks.
While I’m interested in contributing, I do not have the time or interest to be the main consolidator at this time. Nor do I have the technical ability to create a blog aggregator which might be as simple as setting up the widgets on this blog for a blogroll.
But then we have official news and unofficial news.
Because we are new and we are small and at a sensitive stage in our development, I do not have an appetite for airing complaints or negative perspectives on this blog, though I might allow some leeway in the comments section.
I think this is why you do not see many comments from actual Ordinariate members and especially clergy on this blog though I know it is read.
You can find the negative stuff out there but I am not going to link to posts I find irresponsible, overly-negative, largely based on imputing motives and conjecture and potentially harmful to our new community. And I will also moderate comments in that vein, too. I am especially careful about attacks on individual persons.
At the same time, I’m not interested in being the official mouthpiece of Ordinariate spin either though I am happy to pass along Ordinariate news releases from time to time.
So, what would you like to see in terms of Ordinariate news? What do you think you are missing? What would your ideal one-stop-shopping news portal look like?
Foolishness to the world 
Are you saying that the reason we “do not see many comments from actual Ordinariate members and especially clergy” is because you “do not have an appetitie for airing complaints”? Or am I misreading?
You are misreading. I have seldom blocked comments. Only one recently. The negative stuff tends to come from people who are interested in the Ordinariate but not part of it.
So I have suspected sour grapes, or bitterness at the root. I just seldom get any comments at all from any Ordinariate members. Mostly just from interested bystanders.
I don’t know why Ordinriate members don’t comment.
Well, you’re right about sour grapes.
Maybe the Ordinariate folks are just busy? Or they’re busy visiting their local Catholic parishes to find out what’s up, and to mingle in general?
Pingback: How to best share Ordinariate news | Catholic Canada
I would just like to hear about what is going on in other Ordinariate groups. At one time, Deborah,you were posting pictures and reports on events at Annunciation. This is the type of thing that interests me and, perhaps others. I am not suggesting that this be done frequently, but only as special events take place. I think some avenue for Ordinariate members to share about themselves may be of interest, as well. As far as sour grapes are concerned, wrangling and contention, I think a number of us are very tired about this. I don’t this type of thing should be allowed on any website serving as a clearing house for information. There are other blogs and channels where people can let off steam in com boxes. No one should become the self-appointed mouthpiece for the Ordinariate, but it would help if someone or a group of people could put together some form of newsletter with collective information from a number of Ordinariate groups. with the approval of the Ordinary and/or the Dean.My Secular Franciscan region does this on a quarterly basis and it is a great help in binding the fraternities together and serving as an effective means of communication.
There are plenty of ways to share Ordinariate News.
1. An actual newspaper
2. Social Media (Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, Youtube Channel, GloriaTV etc.)
3. Internet Forum (Fisheaters, Byzcath, etc.)
4. Smoke Signals
5. Public Access Television/EWTN-type of channel
6. A brief announcement at the local Ordinary Catholic Parish embedded in -their- bulletins.
7. Some publication delivered directly by mail to Ordinariate members.
8. Telegraph cables
9. Individual Blogs (like the stage we’re currently at.)
10. Literal word-of-mouth. “Hey, Msgr. Steenson said this, pass it on.”
First of all, thank you Mrs. Gyapong, for after the demise of the Anglo-Catholic, your blog became (with that of Mr. Cavanaugh) the primary source of information on what’s going on in the North-American ordinariate for us foreign supporters. And congratulations in praying 15 decades of a rosary everyday, I have so much difficulty to pray just one rosary every so often that I admire your endeavour!
As to the future, maybe some kind of deanery newsletter such as the Anglican Catholic Chronicle of the ACCC could be created? But if it is not doable, I’d be very thankful if you post brief articles on important events you have knowledge of, such as receptions, ordinations, visitations by the ordinary… One last thing: the comment section of this blog has been also incredibly informative. Even-though they have not been numerous, comments by ordinariate clergy such as Fr. Kenyon or laypeople helped a lot to solve questions that arose.
+ pax et bonum
I think there is a Deanery newsletter in the making but I do not know when it will be available or how. I would suspect it will be a pdf of some kind. Frankly, I don’t care for pdfs that much because of all the extra clicking to open things and since I’m on the computer a lot for work I don’t like to click any more than I have to.
I am in communication with the Dean, Fr. Lee Kenyon, on a somewhat regular basis. I will bring up the topic with him in July, when I touch bases with him. In the meantime, Right now, I think the Dean has a lot on his plate with the situation in Calgary and the clean up. I will make Ordinariate information regarding activities in the Oshawa Sodality and other communities on my blog, at http://oshawaordinariate.blogspot.ca/ as often as I can. I may provide an e mail address where such information (reports, photos could be sent in) . A representative of Rochester Ordinariate has shown some interest in some time of website to aggregate such information, even though they are outside of Canadian Deanery. I think things on this issue may be in the works, before the Fall but all this needs to be referred the Dean and the Ordinary for approval. My personal concern is that, like Deborah, I can not become the main co-coordinator of this because of other commitments. I also fear involvement in too many things could have an adverse effect on my prayer life. I think I already spend too much time on the internet. I can’t speak for you, Deborah, but you may be coming from the same angle I am on this issue.
One possible solution is the creation of another group blog with a representative from each region or parish whose job it is to post pictures and news. We could have one for Canada; there could be one for the United States or one for the whole Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peters
Deborah,
You wrote: We could have one for Canada; there could be one for the United States or one for the whole Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peters
It would be good to start a separate web site for the Deanery of St. John the Baptist as soon as practicable, if only because the Vatican’s intent clearly is to split it off as a separate ordinariate, probably with the same title, as soon as it attains critical mass to be sustainable. The more that’s put into place now, the easier the transition will be.
Of course, I full well understand the reality that this work is undertaken by volunteers who have other responsibilities. You are doing a great job!
Norm.
A Canadian Deanery website is needed.
This could include posts with photos of ordinations, first masses, baptisms, confirmations, weddings, funerals and special events. Local parishes/groups could submit these to the webmaster. Comments should be striclty censored. The national website should not be a venue for people to grind axes. The role of the website should be to promote the Ordinariate, and should foucus on evangelization.
There could be posts on music, ceremony, vestments – generally the liturgical arts.
A section for catechesis is also needed.
There might also be a section that is used for groups to help each other. St. X needs a green cope; St. Y has two, but needs a processional cross; St. Z has more stuff than they need. The website could help groups work together.
Just a few ideas.
Yes, we need a monstrance!
I will let our folks know.
We just got a mosnstrance, but it was missing the lunette that holds the host.
We had to be creative.
A clearing house of Ordinariate news would be great. In our Roman rite parish here in West Virginia, we have made a commitment to the Ordinariate to pray for its mission and ministry. And this we do daily. But it would be good to have news about how the Ordinariate is doing and what are the special intentions we should be praying for.
Deborah,
You said: Because we are new and we are small and at a sensitive stage in our development, I do not have an appetite for airing complaints or negative perspectives on this blog, though I might allow some leeway in the comments section.
I think this is why you do not see many comments from actual Ordinariate members and especially clergy on this blog though I know it is read.
Unfortunately, the situation will remain very sensitive for the foreseeable future, and quite probably forevermore, because clergy of the Anglican tradition who are “exploring” reception into an ordinariate typically cannot say any more than that, at least publicly, without forfeiting their positions of ministry and thus their sustenance and, in many cases, their homes. And even after reception of former Anglican clergy and congregations into the full communion of the Catholic Church, the policy of the Catholic Church is to refrain from issuing press releases that might come across as rubbing the noses of the denominations from which they came in the fact of the departure. Thus, the only indication that a community is now part of the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter typically is the addition of the community to the list of communities on that ordinariate’s web site whenever that list subsequently gets updated. Unfortunately, this creates a major gap in information about former Anglican communities and congregations that get received into a diocese for some period of time with the intent to move to the ordinariate some time later (typically upon the ordination as Catholic presbyters of their former Anglican clergy).
You asked: So, what would you like to see in terms of Ordinariate news? What do you think you are missing? What would your ideal one-stop-shopping news portal look like?
Right now, the most important information would be details of former Anglican parishes and clergy that have come into the Catholic Church but that have not made it into the ordinariate. The members of these congregations undoubtedly have the sense that they are in a holding pattern, and it would be encouraging to many of them to know that they are neither alone nor forgotten — and once they have been received into the full communion of the Catholic Church, there is no need to conceal that fact. Also, the numbers of those who are still on the way into the ordinariate would be an encouragement to all.
In particular, I’m curious as to the fate of former parishes and clergy of the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada (ACCC) and the Anglican Church in America (ACA) that indicated intent to come into the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. North of the border, the March 2012 issue of the ACCC “Diocesan Circular” lists the following pastors and congregations as coming to the ordinariate, but they do not yet appear in the list of ordinariate communities.
* Fr David Skelton (Fellowship of Blessed John Henry Newman, Edmonton)
* Fr Jim Tilley (Good Shepherd, Oshawa)
* Fr Gérard Trinque (Christ the King, Tyendinaga)
* Fr Doug Nicholson (St Athanasius, Montreal)
* Fr Charles Warner (Holy Cross, Sydney Forks)
* Fr Chris Le Page (St Thomas More, Charlottetown)
In the ACA, there was an ordinariate-bound parish in Hawai’i, and I’m not sure how many others, that have disappeared completely from the ACA web site but do not yet appear in the listing on the ordinariate web site. If all of these communities are still on track to come into the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter, most likely soon after the ordination of their former Anglican clergy as Catholic presbyters, that ordinariate will see significant growth in the very near future!
Norm.
All I can say about the Oshawa Sodality (James Tilley) is that there has been an important development and we could be in the Ordinariate ” before the snow flies.” A more specific announcement may be forthcoming in the weeks ahead. We are holding our own here and the attendance at liturgies has been boosted by the attendance of a number of traditionally minded Catholics (on the Sundays we have mass). Our main problem is having a priest on a regular and consistent basis to celebrate Sunday mass. I think when we have our own priest we will begin to show positive signs of growth.
Apropos of the last comment by “Catholic Left”, the ACCC website is up to date enough to have removed the Harrises’ former parish from the rolls, so I think it is being reasonably well-maintained.
Paul,
You wrote: All I can say about the Oshawa Sodality (James Tilley) is that there has been an important development and we could be in the Ordinariate ” before the snow flies.” A more specific announcement may be forthcoming in the weeks ahead.
That is certainly encouraging!
You wrote: We are holding our own here and the attendance at liturgies has been boosted by the attendance of a number of traditionally minded Catholics (on the Sundays we have mass).
Those “traditionally minded Catholics” obviously cannot officially join the ordinariate congregation, but their contributions to the collection when they come to mass certainly can bolster its finances!
You wrote: Our main problem is having a priest on a regular and consistent basis to celebrate Sunday mass. I think when we have our own priest we will begin to show positive signs of growth.
Yes, I agree!
And, reading between the lines, it sounds like the solution to this problem is imminent! 😉
Norm.
The community in Hawaii is not now seeking entrance into the Ordinariate and their priest, Fr Wheeler, has posted that he is no longer seeking admission into the RC Church.
The Edmonton community in Canada is still in existence under the leadership of David Skelton with Sacramental provision presently offered by a Fr David McLeod of St Andrew’s RC Church, Edmonton. Msgr steenson met with them at the ordination of Fr Gibson at St John’s, Calgary.
The Sodality of the Good Shepherd, Oshawa is administered by Jim Tilley and still active.
The Tyendinaga group still exists but I don’t think Gerard Trinque is presently in formation.
I am not sure what is happening in Nova Scotia with Dr Warner as Holy Cross website is presently closed down.
I don’t know what is happening with the St Thomas More community in Prince Edward Island or with Chris Le Page. The same is true for the St Athanasius community in Montreal and their leader, Doug Nicholson.
I understand that there are still quite a few former ACCC priests in formation and we should continue to see ordinations in future.
According to the ACCC website, St Athanasius is a functioning parish of that body, led by Douglas Nicholson.
I know – but I am not sure how much to rely on the different websites these days.
CatholicLeft,
You wrote: The community in Hawaii is not now seeking entrance into the Ordinariate and their priest, Fr Wheeler, has posted that he is no longer seeking admission into the RC Church.
That’s curious, as the community is no longer on the list of parishes of the Diocese of the West on the web site of the Anglican Church in America (ACA). Did that community affiliate with another “continuing Anglican” body?
You wrote: I understand that there are still quite a few former ACCC priests in formation and we should continue to see ordinations in future.
Yes, I believe that to be the case. IIRC, last fall, Msgr. Steenson said that there would be over twenty former Anglican clergy from Canada in the most recent formation class, and I’m aware of ordinations of only five or six of them. That March 2012 issue of the Diocesan Circular of the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada (ACCC) listed a significant number of clergy who had no parishes attached as coming into the ordinariate, many of whom probably are included in this number. I also don’t recall hearing of Catholic ordinations of Kipling Cooper (formerly ACCC pastor of Holy Nativity, Barrhaven) and Doug Hayman (formerly ACCC pastor of St Barnabas, Spencerville), whose congregations are now part of the Sodality of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Ottawa. Deborah undoubtedly would have informed us of their Catholic ordinations!
Norm.
I don’t know where the community in Hawaii stands at this time. Fr wheeler is very angry with the treatment of Fr Kelley and St Mary’s, Hollywood by Nishops Strawn and Marsh, so his disaffiliation from ACA-DOW is no surprise.
I have no idea if they are affiliated to another continuing group as I can find no evidence of it.
Hello Deborah,
Without question, communication remains a challenge for the North American Ordinariate. No newsletter, limited website and social media…well, no need to belabor it.
But with the demise of the Anglo-Catholic it does seem like we’re struggling for an independent online presence…gathering place.
I’d say the lack of comments is due to the fact that there aren’t many of us. But we’ve also seen how much commentary was generated at Anglo-Catholic…so perhaps it’s a means of finding the proper vehicle to renew that kind of activity.
I would like to second Norm’s comment that systematic and accurate information on the status of current and incoming communities is hard to come by. The official Ordinariate site has been notoriously out of date,
Regarding the supposed policy of the Catholic church to refrain from issuing press releases, Mrs Gyapong has in fact posted links to articles in various Catholic newspapers regarding the reception of groups in Vancouver, Edmonton, and elsewhere, the visit of Msgr Steenson to the group in Hamilton diocese, etc. Regarding the latter, although I think they were the first ACCC group to be received into the Catholic church, they were only officially received into the Ordinariate last month. That seems to be a separate process. That is presumably why the Edmonton, Oshawa, and Tyendinaga groups mentioned above do not appear on the Ordinariate website yet, though they were all received last year. The status of the last three is different. The last two ceased to be ACCC communities some time ago so it is uncertain whether there is any “group” involved. Dr Warner’s website, which fulfilled many of the goals talked about in this discussion, was taken down a few months ago without explanation.
I am glad that this issue is creating a response and that some of us who are either in the Ordinariate, or, at least Ordinariate bound are coming out of the woodwork, so to speak. I really think there should be more communication between the various groups in Canada, so we can know what’s going on in various communities and be more supportive of one another. Right now, it just seems we are a string of isolated Anglican Use communities, hanging in a state of limbo. I am referring to those groups not yet received formally into the Ordinariate. One might get the impression from the above comments above that the Ordinariate experience is faltering in Canada. Well, it does have its problems, but we need to overcome these problems and become a little more pro-active in helping one another. The strength of this Canadian Deanery depends on this.
Paul,
You wrote: I am glad that this issue is creating a response and that some of us who are either in the Ordinariate, or, at least Ordinariate bound are coming out of the woodwork, so to speak. I really think there should be more communication between the various groups in Canada, so we can know what’s going on in various communities and be more supportive of one another. Right now, it just seems we are a string of isolated Anglican Use communities, hanging in a state of limbo. I am referring to those groups not yet received formally into the Ordinariate. One might get the impression from the above comments above that the Ordinariate experience is faltering in Canada. Well, it does have its problems, but we need to overcome these problems and become a little more pro-active in helping one another. The strength of this Canadian Deanery depends on this.
Yes, I concur completely!
Norm.
Also, please let’s keep it international. It is a great encouragement to everyone to read about what is going on around the world and it is particularly heartening to read of successes elsewhere if and when there are problems in our own small corner.
The North American and UK Ordinariates seem to be very different communities. The latest Portal magazine makes reference to the fact that “in some areas, the Ordinariate has haemorrhaged members who become Diocesan Catholics.” This is not surprising in light of the fact that UK groups are worshipping, often only once a month, in diocesan churches, using the same NO liturgy they used as Anglicans. North American communities appear to have a greater sense of distinct identity.
EPMS,
You wrote: The North American and UK Ordinariates seem to be very different communities. The latest Portal magazine makes reference to the fact that “in some areas, the Ordinariate has haemorrhaged members who become Diocesan Catholics.” This is not surprising in light of the fact that UK groups are worshipping, often only once a month, in diocesan churches, using the same NO liturgy they used as Anglicans. North American communities appear to have a greater sense of distinct identity.
Yes, I think that this assessment is substantially correct. It’s likely that some of the smaller communities of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham will dissolve in due course unless another wave of incoming Anglicans greatly increases their numbers.
But there is another phenomenon in the United Kingdom that we have not seen here in the States yet. English diocesan bishops have entrusted a few diocesan parishes with ordinariate communities attached to the pastoral care of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, one of which apparently was a previously a personal (non-territorial) parish serving primarily diplomatic personnel and thus has become a de facto ordinariate parish even though the diocese retains title to the real estate. It will be interesting to see how this development will play out over time.
Norm.
Norm: Are you talking about Precious Blood, Borough and Our Lady of the Assumption and St Gregory Gregory, Warwick Sq? Given the UK clergy shortage I would not be surprised if many more parishes are headed in future by clergy attached to the Ordinariate. The bigger issue is whether the number of Ordinariate lay people continues to justify Anglican Use services there.
EPMS,
You asked: Are you talking about Precious Blood, Borough and Our Lady of the Assumption and St Gregory Gregory, Warwick Sq?
Yes, among others.
There was a recent article on, or perhaps linked from, another blog about a small diocesan parish (or mission?) that previously did not have a resident pastor, but rather had one Sunday mass celebrated by the pastor of a parish in a neighboring town. The church now hosts two masses on a Sunday — one celebrated according to the ordinary form, ostensibly for the diocesan congregation, and the other currently celebrated according to Rite One of the Book of Divine Worship, ostensibly for an ordinariate congregation that moved there from a nearby town. The former Anglican pastor who came into the Catholic Church now resides in the rectory and serves as pastor for both congregations. The two congregations run many programmes, such as spiritual formation and sacramental preparation, jointly, pooling their resources.
You wrote: Given the UK clergy shortage I would not be surprised if many more parishes are headed in future by clergy attached to the Ordinariate.
Yes, we undoubtedly will see a lot more “arrangements of convenience” of this sort, probably in all three ordinariates.
Of course, these arrangements are not all the same.
Norm.
The latest notices from St John the Evangelist, Calgary posted on the website invite the faithful to pray for eight Canadian candidates for the priesthood: seven former ACCC clergy and the man more widely known as Peregrinus. Given Fr Kenyon’s status as VF I think we can take this as an indication of who is currently in the pipeline.
EPMS,
Ready to break open another bottle of champagne?
You wrote: The latest notices from St John the Evangelist, Calgary posted on the website invite the faithful to pray for eight Canadian candidates for the priesthood: seven former ACCC clergy and the man more widely known as Peregrinus. Given Fr Kenyon’s status as VF I think we can take this as an indication of who is currently in the pipeline.
Yes, clearly — and it also, by implication, gives us a good idea of where congregations are likely to soon join the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter and the Deanery of St. John the Baptist. The congregations that came with at least some of these clergy are in a “holding pattern” of temporary affiliation with the local diocese until the Catholic ordination of their former Anglican clergy.
For the record, here’s the entry in the prayer requests in yesterday’s bulletin (boldface in original) to spare other readers of this blog the burden of looking up the notices on the parish’s web site.
I’m sure that Deborah and the rest of the Sodality of the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Ottawa is especially thrilled that the last two names are in this list!
Norm.
I’m a Catholic who is also webmaster for the Anglican Sojourners Fellowship (a ministry of the Anglican Network in Canada), and I’ve been looking for information on the Anglican Ordinariate in Canada in order to have resources available for any Anglicans who might be interested. I’m a great believer in the usefulness of websites for spreading information. I would like very much to be contacted by anyone who is involved with any kind of Anglican Ordinariate website (or would like to start one). You can email me at jeriwoods.dm(at)gmail.com.
I think that the following is clear now:
1. Chris Le Page has been admitted as a Catholic layman but is not in formation as a priest and apparently will not be.
2. Dr. David Skelton has been ordained priest (not ‘presbyter’) in Edmonton.
3. Charles Warner was re-received back into the Catholic Church as a layman but, having been rejected for ordination even to the diaconate, he has now joined forces with Archbishop Provence. I’m not sure if this is the Province of Christ the King or the other Anglo-Catholic Province but he’s not returned to the TAC, likely because they won’t admit returnees.
4. John Hall has come across as a laic and has Richard Harris. The latter has now decided not to proceed to the priesthood “for prudential reasons”. This is very sad. It means that not even one former TAC priest from the Eastern Provinces of Canada will be ordained as a Catholic priest. Not even one.
5. Gérard Trinique, despite repeated attempts, is being rejected for formation or for ordination. I don’t know if he’s come over as a laic. I suspect that he must have done so.
6. Douglas Nicholson remains the TAC priest at Montreal.
7. James Tilley is a Catholic priest now and at Oshawa.
On the whole, this has all been very sad. One group has stayed with the A.C.C.C. (TAC), one has gone over to one of the other continuer groups, the Anglican Catholic Church and another to the continuer Province of Christ the King. Fr. Stanley Sinclair and one other former TAC priest went with one of these last two; Charles Warner and others, with the other.
In my view, Rome has treated the TAC very badly and it is a great shame. The argument that many of their priests had not been properly formed is nonsense. It would be hard to imagine a lower standard of seminary formation than the one we have in the Roman Church since Vatican II. It turns out ignoramuses who know how to counsel wayward adolescents but don’t know how to offer Sacrifice with dignity and grace or how to sing the Divine Office. They are merely installed as NewChurch presbyters, whereas a Priest of Jesus Christ offers the Eternal propitiatory Sacrifice as infallibly defined at Session XXII of Trent. I have much more respect for the former TAC men than for these mifsfits we’ve churned out of our Roman seminaries.
P.K.T.P.
Mr Perkins, as has been discussed elsewhere Dr Skelton has not been ordained priest. The Edmonton site alludes to health issues. Mr Trinque, one of the former ACCC clergy in delict of schism, is a Catholic layman. At least six other former ACCC clergy whom you have not mentioned, none in formation for ordination, have also been received.
I have heard from another source that Dr. Skelton’s health has not been good. It is very sad to hear that he has not been ordained priest. I hope and pray that he will be in the near future. Bryan Donegan, a former TAC priest of Edmonton, was admitted as a layman. I have now learned that another TAC priest who was expected to cross the Tiber in B.C. has gone to one of the other independent Anglican groups. I have all of this down somewhere but seem to have misplaced the note. I’ll dig it up eventually.
I am very sorry also to hear that, after all this and after having received his nulla osta, Richard Harris of Fredericton will not be ordained “for prudential reasons”. We must respect his privacy on that and I don’t wish to pry, only to express regret that not even one of the former TAC priests in Eastern Canada has been ordained priest in the Catholic Church. Some, like John Hall, also of Fredericton and Chris LePage of P.E.I. are now Catholic laics. The argument that some of these men lack academic credentials might perhaps have some force (I don’t know) were it not for the fact that most Roman priests don’t know their amices from their albs and don’t know about matter, form and intent or other basics. They are a tribe of ignoramuses, much like Norm of this list. It is hard to imagine any group having a lower academic standard. Meet a TAC priest and they are usually much more knowledgeable about the Catholic Faith than are these clowns we’ve churned out of our Roman seminaries.
The shepherd has been struck and the sheep are scattered. Only nine former TAC priests (please correct me if I’m wrong) have been ordained to serve in the Deanery, These are Msgr. Wilkinson and Frs. Birch and Malins of Victoria, Switzer of Port Albernia in B.C., Reid (now of Victoria), Cooper and Hayman of Ottawa, Tilley of Oshawa and Shier of Vancouver. O’Rourke was ordained for the Ordinariate but is working for the Archdiocese of Calgary. Bowles, of Kitchener-Waterloo, brought his small community but not himself across. Laics include former A.C.C.C. (TAC) priests Donegan, Trinique, Hall and Le Page, Drs. Henry and Braunstein. Warner of Sydney, admitted as a laic, has now departed for the Anglican Catholic Church or the Province of Christ the King. Other former TAC priests have gone to one of these or the other and they are divided (e.g.. Sinclair and someone else whose name escapes me have gone to one of those two organisations while the other departees seem to have gone to the other) I’ve heard news on Fr. Gale of one of the islands near Vancouver Island but I’ve forgotten it. He has long been the mystery man here and nobody is willing or able to discuss him. He either stayed in the TAC in the end or went to the Anglican Catholic Church or the Province of Christ the King. Keith Kirkwood has just disappeared. David Marriott has gone to the Anglican Catholic Church or the Province of Christ the King. It’s a real dog’s breakfast.
Also in the Deanery are two priests from the Anglican Network in Calgary (John Wright) and Fr. Gibbons or Gibson (forgive me but it’s been a while and the names escape me). There are also directly from the Anglican Church of Canada Fr. Hodgins in Toronto and, from the Church of England, the Dean, Fr. Lee Kenyon.
I’m sorry but I must wonder out loud of the TAC people would have made this attempt had they known the outcome in advance. They were part of a very small organisation. They are now parts of four very small organisations. That can’t be good in itself. The question is which among these four groups will even survive. I hope and pray for the Ordinariates. May God and our Lady protect and foster them.
P.K.T.P.
Peter,
You wrote: I am very sorry also to hear that, after all this and after having received his nulla osta, Richard Harris of Fredericton will not be ordained “for prudential reasons”. We must respect his privacy on that and I don’t wish to pry, only to express regret that not even one of the former TAC priests in Eastern Canada has been ordained priest in the Catholic Church. Some, like John Hall, also of Fredericton and Chris LePage of P.E.I. are now Catholic laics.
I agree with you that this situation is quite unfortunate.
You wrote: The argument that some of these men lack academic credentials might perhaps have some force (I don’t know) were it not for the fact that most Roman priests don’t know their amices from their albs and don’t know about matter, form and intent or other basics.
The reality is that “some of these men” might well be in a holding pattern, with Catholic ordination likely to happen in their future.
For better or worse, the Vatican can only verify academic credentials — that is, the award of a degree of Master of Divinity (or equivalent) by an accredited seminary. Those who lack such credentials are thus presumed to need more extensive formation — potentially up to a full Catholic program of seminary formation for those who have no documented formation at all.
Further, the reality is that the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter has very limited administrative and financial resources. The focus of the ordinariate’s administration, therefore, undoubtedly has been on getting as many former Anglican clergy ordained in the Catholic Church as quickly as possible — so those who had completed a full Anglican program of seminary formation, and thus required only minimal supplemental formation, obviously were first in the queue. With the overwhelming majority of this group now ordained, the ordinariate’s administrative staff obviously can turn its attention to those requiring more extensive formation.
Also, with respect to Roman Catholic clergy, the situation is anything but uniform especially from one seminary to another and from one diocese to another. It is true that many diocesan seminaries leave a lot to be desired, and this is reflected in the clergy of the dioceses that use those seminaries. Alas, one must be careful about generalizations: there are also a good number of Catholic seminaries that are succeeding — and this also is reflected in the clergy of dioceses that use them. The contrast will be readily apparent as soon as you assist in a parish mass in one of the latter dioceses.
You wrote: They are a tribe of ignoramuses, much like Norm of this list.
Disparaging comments like this say a lot more about the person who posts them than about the persons they purport to disparage. Really, Peter… didn’t your mother teach you better than this???
Yes, it’s really a sad reflection on your parents, too!
Norm.
I have some additional information and clarification about former & present A.C.C.C. (TAC) priests here in Canada. First, there is Fr. Edward Gale, the mystery man. He was supposed to come across into the Ordinariate with the others but was conspiculously absent on that occasion in Victoria, B.C, I heard that Bishop Gagnon of Victoria had given him permission to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church. (This is not confirmed.) Anyway, a few weeks ago, his name returned to the TAC parish in Victoria. He has decided to stay in the TAC. He lives/d on Saltspring Island or one of the other islands nearby.
The ageing Fr. Stanley Sinclair is now assistant to another former TAC priest, Fr. Peter Sandercock. They receive their licences from Archbishop James Provence of the Province of Christ the King. The Province of Christ the King only has a presence in Victoria, on Vancouver Island.
Fr. Charles Warner of Sydney, Nova Scotia, having been received into the Catholic Church as a layman, has now left to join the Anglican Catholic Church – Original Province, under Archbishop James Haverland. The other Canadian priests under Haverland are all bear familiar names and I believe all of them or all but one were former TAC priests: Frs. Robert Mansfield, James Gibbons, Peter Jardine, James Chantler and David Marriott.
Keith Kirkwood was received into the Catholic Church as a layman in November of 2010. He had long been a TAC priest in B.C. He now lives on Vancouver Island.
I’ve heard recently that Fr. O’Rourke, who was working on loan for the D. of Calgary, will now assume a position for the Ordinariate. I’m wondering if he’ll be sent to Edmonton to become the Ordinariate priest there. Does anyone know? It would seem that Dr. Skelton is not proceeding to ordination at Edmonton.
P.K.T.P.
Peter,
You said: I’ve heard recently that Fr. O’Rourke, who was working on loan for the D. of Calgary, will now assume a position for the Ordinariate. I’m wondering if he’ll be sent to Edmonton to become the Ordinariate priest there. Does anyone know?
I have not heard anything definitive, but that’s clearly a possibility. The primary issue would be his ability to relocate with his family.
Norm.
Fr O’Rourke is celibate.
The OOLW seems to have been prepared to ordain many former C of E clergy who came without any kind of group. Since this was generally an opportunity to acquire a self-supporting, academically qualified priest, one can see the point. In North America, most former clergy seeking ordination were affiliated with “Continuing” bodies. Those who lacked an M. Div or equivalent, especially if they had few or no parishioners, have been less successful in being accepted for ordination. The parish notices at St John the Evangelist, Calgary include the names of those preparing for ordination in the Canadian Deanery, and currently there seem to be none. If the norm going forward is to be celibate clergy I will be surprised if we see any ordinations for a decade or more.
EPMS,
You wrote: If the norm going forward is to be celibate clergy I will be surprised if we see any ordinations for a decade or more.
More precisely, the current norm is for candidates for ordination to the order of presbyter who were not previously Anglican clergy to be celibate, but the present “Complementary Norms” for the implementation of the apostolic constitution Anglicanorum coetibus do indicate some willingness within the Vatican to make exceptions. Celibacy is not required for former Anglican and former Protestant clergy, even if they require a more extensive program of formation than that of those ordained for the service of the ordinariates to date.
Realistically, I think that we will see more ordinations of married clergy for the ordinariates as additional clergy of Anglican and Protestant bodies come into the ordinariates and, at least in the case of the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter, as former Anglican clergy who require more extensive formation complete what they require.
Norm.
Just rereading your last sentence, which I did not address. Has there been a new “intake” of on-line seminarians, similar to the class from which Frs Cooper, Hodgins et al graduated last year? I recall that the initial gathering of that group in Houston was reported on this blog.
EPMS,
You asked: Just rereading your last sentence, which I did not address. Has there been a new “intake” of on-line seminarians, similar to the class from which Frs Cooper, Hodgins et al graduated last year?
If you are referring to the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter (OCSP), I have not heard of the start of another (third) class of candidates for ordination, but I think that there are members of the last (second) class whose ordinations are still pending.
That said, it seems clear that the leadership of the OCSP began with formation of those who had completed a full Anglican program of seminary formation in order to get as many former Anglican clergy ordained in the Catholic Church quickly as possible. According to Cardinal Wuerl’s report to the U. S. Conference of Bishops on the plans for the formation of the OCSP nearly three years ago, there are two more groups of former Anglican clergy coming into the OCSP — (1) those whose formal formation is virtually non-existent, and thus who require essentially a full program of Catholic seminary formation, and (2) those who don’t fit neatly into either of the other two categories (that is, who have some formal formation but not a full program thereof). Nobody has said publicly that the individuals who fell into either of these categories will not be ordained for the OCSP, so I assume that their formation is now at least in the planning stages.
You wrote: I recall that the initial gathering of that group in Houston was reported on this blog.
Yes, but don’t forget that the blogger knew two members of that class personally and thus had access to information that is reportable, but otherwise not published. Unless another contributor reports such information, it’s not likely that we will see it.
Norm.
Norm, the first class of on-line seminarians, which formed in the spring of 2012, had 62 members. The second had 20 or 30. This is considerably more than the current complement of OCSP clergy. Some (most?) of those not ordained to date have withdrawn from the process, but presumably there are others from these two groups still in the pipeline. I would have thought that the OCSP website would have made some effort to publicise the formation of a new class. How else would they attract potential seminarians?
EPMS,
You wrote: Norm, the first class of on-line seminarians, which formed in the spring of 2012, had 62 members. The second had 20 or 30.
I rather remember the numbers being the other way around, as very few of the clergy coming from either province of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) submitted dossiers in time to be part of the first class due to the confusion that arose therein regarding the process. But in any case….
You wrote: This is considerably more than the current complement of OCSP clergy. Some (most?) of those not ordained to date have withdrawn from the process, but presumably there are others from these two groups still in the pipeline.
I’m not aware of any public statistics or other information as to how many candidates might have withdrawn from the process or why. I have heard of only two candidates not being ordained as planned, both of whom are in Canada (Edmonton and Fredericton) — one apparently due to illness and the other for reasons not disclosed — and it is not clear whether these are cases of delay or of complete withdrawal.
But beyond that, we still have a significant number of dossiers in the other two categories….
You wrote: I would have thought that the OCSP website would have made some effort to publicise the formation of a new class. How else would they attract potential seminarians?
There may not be another large class for a while. I rather suspect that the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter (OCSP) is now getting a fairly steady trickle of inquiries from clergy who have completed a full program of Anglican seminary formation, but probably not enough to constitute a formal “class” per se and thus requiring formation individually or in much smaller groups.
There is one additional consideration here. The bureau chiefs and their subordinate staffs in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) who administer the affairs of the ordinariates clearly have been busy with details of plans for the process of reception of the Church of the Torres Strait (CTS) into the Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross (OOLSC). The relative lack of current Catholic presence in the islands of the Torres Strait makes the process of formation for this reception particularly challenging: the Diocese of Cairns, which encompasses the islands of the Torres Strait, apparently has only one priest in the entire region so getting enough Catholic catechists into the region to prepare each parish of the CTS for reception will take some doing even if one allows that the formal receptions probably will have to occur on different days. This may have caused other matters pertaining to the ordinariates to shift to the CDF’s “back burner” temporarily.
Norm.
Actually, for once, I agree with Mr. Norm on this. Furthermore, I think that Pope Francis will favour allowing married diocesan priests. Bishops and those in religious orders will remain celibate. We should pray for vocations, especially for former TAC men.
Again, the idea that the TAC men lacked academic credentials might have had some force (not much, though) were it not for the fact that Roman seminary standards are a pathetic joke. It is not hard to find priests who openly admit that they were taught how to counsel troubled souls but not how to offer Mass or sing the Office. The standard in Roman seminaries, as in Anglican seminaries and theological seminaries has been deplorable since the 1960s. I have met and known priests who know less about the faith than does the average layman. It’s really scary. In contrast, most former and present TAC priests know the faith inside and out. They are more qualified for ordination than are Roman seminarists because the latter need to unlearn all the Vatican II nonsense they’ve imbibed in our seminaries.
P.K.T.P.
Peter,
You wrote: Furthermore, I think that Pope Francis will favour allowing married diocesan priests.
He has indicated an openness to the possibility, coupled with a desire for the initiative to come from the episcopal conferences with respect to their own territories.
That said, there are a few practical issues that the bishops must resolve before ordination of a significant number of married men to the order of presbyter would become an option.
>> 1. The respective dioceses obviously would need to restructure their finances to provide adequate compensation to married clergy.
>> 2. Rectories in parishes that would have married clergy with children require reconfiguration to provide suitable accommodations for pastors and parochial vicars with families.
>> 3. Seminaries also would require reconfiguration to provide suitable accommodations for seminarians with families.
>> 4. The program of seminary formation would require adaptation to provide appropriate formation for wives and fiancées of seminarians who are married or contemplating marriage prior to ordination. I envision this formation to be similar to the formation provided for wives of married candidates to the deaconate.
Many dioceses and some seminaries have done this on a small scale to provide formation for married former Anglican and former Protestant clergy, but not on the scale that an open door to ordination of married men would require.
You wrote: Bishops and those in religious orders will remain celibate.
Yes, at least for the foreseeable future.
You wrote: Again, the idea that the TAC men lacked academic credentials might have had some force (not much, though) were it not for the fact that Roman seminary standards are a pathetic joke. It is not hard to find priests who openly admit that they were taught how to counsel troubled souls but not how to offer Mass or sing the Office.
To be fair, some Roman Catholic seminaries are much more effective than others in preparing candidates for pastoral ministry. However, a seminary that teaches its students to carry out the mechanics of the liturgy in a robotic manner without instilling a true liturgical spirituality that comprehends the mystery therein is not doing its students, or the larger church, any favors. Diocesan seminaries generally seem to be the worst. Seminaries operated by Benedictine abbeys and other religious communities seem to have the spiritual foundation of the respective orders behind them — and it really does make a big difference!
Norm.
Of course the celibacy requirement will continue to be waived for former clergy; I just think that the supply of such may have dried up as far as the Candian Deanery of the OCSP is concerned. Owing to the current general inability to provide stipends or benefits the OCSP will have difficulty recruiting clergy who are not self-supporting; this usually means retired clergy. In addition, OCSP has not shown the same willingness as the OOLW to ordain clergy who come without a group, so this means that, going forward, prime candidates will be newly retired clergy bringing former parishioners with them ( or, of course, active clergy bringing a group large enough to provide financial support). In the small world of Canadian Anglicanism it is difficult to believe that there is a significant but secret cadre of clergy potentially in either situation. But I am always prepared to be surprised.
EPMS,
You wrote: Owing to the current general inability to provide stipends or benefits the OCSP will have difficulty recruiting clergy who are not self-supporting; this usually means retired clergy.
In fact, there are indications that the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter (OCSP) has deferred acceptance of clergy who are not self-supporting indefinitely due to its meager resources.
Of course, a significant number of those clergy probably will come when they become eligible for pensions from the bodies with which they are currently affiliated, whether with congregations or without.
You wrote: In the small world of Canadian Anglicanism it is difficult to believe that there is a significant but secret cadre of clergy potentially in either situation.
I rather suspect that a significant number of clergy of the Anglican Church of Canada (ACC) probably took a “wait and see” attitude when the formation of the OCSP and its (Canadian) Deanery of St. John the Baptist were announced. Some of them are probably in confidential discussions with Fr. Lee Kenyon or with other clergy of the Deanery of St. John the Baptist, and some may wait another year or two to see how the situation stabilizes.
The other relevant question here is how the continuing abandonment of scriptural teaching will impact evangelical congregations of the ACC, who are theologically orthodox even if not as liturgical as the so-called “Anglo-Catholic” congregations. It’s equally likely that some evangelical pastors and congregations of the ACC are exploring options (again, very discretely).
You wrote: But I am always prepared to be surprised.
I think that you will be quite surprised, in due course.
Again, the timeline for the development of the ordinariates is not measured in years. It’s measured in decades.
Norm.
I surmised that the OCSP was currently accepting only self-supporting clergy WITH a group. The Canadian Deanery, at least, with its 300 or so lay members, probably has all the clergy of pensionable age it currently needs.
Norm, the figure of 62 for the first class was taken from an article by Mary Ann Mueller which appeared in March 2012 on Virtueonline and elsewhere. I can only rely on memory for the number in the second class, but it was much smaller. The CDF is responsible for vetting cadidates for a nulla osta, but the formation process is in the hands of the individual Ordinariates. As has been noted elsewhere, the OOLW has a post-ordination follow-up program but this is not the case for the OCSP. I imagine that the Torres Strait process will be worked out locally, and given the limited resources of both the Catholic diocese and the OOLSC, will probably take some time.
EPMS,
You wrote: The CDF is responsible for vetting cadidates for a nulla osta, but the formation process is in the hands of the individual Ordinariates…. I imagine that the Torres Strait process will be worked out locally, and given the limited resources of both the Catholic diocese and the OOLSC, will probably take some time.
Ah, yes and no. It’s true that the responsibility for the implementation and oversight of preparation of the members and clergy of the Church of the Torres Strait (CTS) rests with the Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross (OOLSC), but the OOLSC does not have the resources of personnel on the ground in the Torres Strait to do the job. In other receptions into the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter (OCSP) and the OOLSC, the local diocese has typically facilitated the process by assigning its own clergy or catechists to provide instruction in each parish and to assist the parishioners in obtaining of decrees of nullity or whatever else they might have required. What makes the reception of the CTS unique (so far) is that the local diocese (that is, the Diocese of Cairns) also does not have enough clergy and catechists in place to do this. As a result, the CDF probably is involved in marshaling resources from other places to permit the reception to proceed in a reasonably timely manner.
That said, I’m pretty confident that the plan for formation, reception of the parishioners and Catholic ordination of the clergy of the CTS is already worked out, and that the announcement signaled the beginning of the implementation of that plan because… well, this is the manner in which the magisterium of the Catholic Church normally does things.
Norm.
Mr Perkins, regarding Fr O’Rourke, if a stipend is an issue Edmonton will not be in the cards, as its Ordinariate membership is in single digits.
EPMS,
You wrote: Mr Perkins, regarding Fr O’Rourke, if a stipend is an issue Edmonton will not be in the cards, as its Ordinariate membership is in single digits.
There are ways around that — perhaps a chaplaincy or collateral assignment as parochial vicar of a diocesan parish — if the archbishop is a willing player.
Norm.